The Buckeye Thread

[sumi]

Feeding buckeyes: It is hatching season and there are several different opinions regarding how birds should be fed. I find most of them amusing as well as very expensive. Its well known that the buckeye is a dual purpose bird and does require the proper feeding schedule to ensure proper genetic development. Have in mind that just because you feed the proper feed doesn't necessarily mean or will determine the bird is genetically engineered to meet the ideal breed standard or description. Good breeding stock is of the upmost importance. I've noticed several buckeyes being bred short in the back and excessively wide in the chest of which narrows as you go back toward the tail.....please remember the standard states a rather long back and not a short one. Buckeyes should never be round; wyandottes are round.....One thing to consider that I've observed is the shorter the bird, the less effective it will be for egg production......I spoke with a judge just this past weekend and he mentioned he judged some buckeyes in IL, he made mention that the color was poor and the backs were short. So those breeding buckeyes should pay attention to those features. There is far more to the breed that a big wide chest; it often provides an unbalanced bird and one that looks "off" in a show pen. I'm sure they make for a great table bird; but Nettie Metcalf wanted the breed to be more than that. So make sure you have adiquate breeding stock to begin with...afterall it starts with the egg.

Just because someone can talk a good game and sound like they make sense doesn't mean they actually do.......when selecting a breeder to acquire birds from make sure their practices mirror what they are preaching. The offsprings will never be any more that their perspective parents; the apple never falls far from the tree. So if the color is poor or any other trait is not right; expect those problems in your offsprings.

Back to feed.......I start out with a 22-24% meat grower (which ever my feed mill is carrying at the time) for about 8-10 weeks and cut it back 20%. Typical cornish crossed are raised on a 24-22% protein diet so why is it necessary to exceed that? All it will do is cost more money and little to know advantage is gained. My bucks have thrived with these values. As they mature; you will need to adjust your feed to ensure that it is properly balanced with grains they will eat. I don't advise ever feeding just a crumble or pellet diet to mature fowl because their are multiple grains available that will benefit your birds.

There are opinions floating around that high protein (27-30%) is the best way to feed young buckeyes. I see 3 problems with feeding high protein feeds to young poultry.Sure, it is well documented that the growth rate do increase and pretty rapidly, but what isn’t visually witnessed is what long term effects feeding high protein does to them. Unless you are feeding them out to be Cornish X’s (to which they are not) for rapid growth then slaughter, I would greatly recommend not feeding feeds that have protein contents of greater than 24%.

If we look closer at the meat production chickens, specifically Cornish Xs, the protein content is reduced to keep them as breeders. So why would we want to provide buckeyes with feeds that have high protein content if we are wanting to produce breeding and egg production stock? Feed manufactures (poultry scientists more likely) developed the formulas for most of the chicken feeds on the market today. They have done a lot of experimental trials and research to determine what a "balanced" feed would yield the best results for the different stages of growth for poultry. You have to remember, these are only chickens and not rocket science.

Which brings to problem #1: If you’re raising young pullets to become layers, you want them to grow efficiently to develop good strong bones and to reach a normal body weight before they begin producing eggs. High-protein diets tend to hurry the birds into production before their bodies are quite ready. Therefore, the ration for growing pullets, from leaving the brooder at 8 weeks to about 14 weeks, should be about 18-20% protein. I’ve personally witnessed a few layers get too big too fast and have leg and joint problems from being fed high protein feed. Your laying hen only need 16-18% protein and anything above that is a waste, both in the feed lot and your pocket book.

Which runs right into problem #2: Protein costs money and the higher protein feed is almost certain to be more expensive.Feeds that contain 30% protein is too high of protein for poultry and a waste of money just because they don't need that much protein. Excess protien passes through the system and therefore is wasted.

Which ends us at problem #3: How they pass it out of their systems and problems that could result if it isn’t passed due to a variety of reasons. I have read that high protein levels can contribute to gout or kidney damage in poultry. Feed containing 30% of protein or more causes uric acid production which in turn creates an excretory load on kidneys. In birds uric acid is the end product of nitrogen metabolism. Uric acid is a nitrogenous waste from protein breakdown and is produced mainly in the liver to which is excreted by the kidneys. High blood levels of uric acid favor its precipitation in tissues. Uric acid is not toxic but precipitated crystals can cause mechanical damage to tissues like kidneys, heart, lungs, intestines and also in the joints. These crystals severely damage body tissues. So Gout is a condition in which kidney function decreases to a point where uric acid accumulates in the blood and body fluids.

So to conclude; if you choose to feed your birds with feeds that have a high protein content, it is your choice but you should be made away of side effects that may occur.

 

[slfarms]

This whole debate on feed seems to be neverending. I certainly love Mr. McCary's endless ramblings in the recent poultry press...take it from a guy that has put more buckeyes on Champion Row than anyone!! They don't need ultra high protien as chicks! 22% protien does the trick! The rest is wasted and that "protien" costs you all more money....money that is wasted! If you flip a couple more pages in the ol' press you'll see some buckeyes that were started on 22% and they look ok to me.
And for the record....I'm not attacking anyone.....I'm trying to save you all some money that is literally being crapped away!
This ideology ALL started with the ALBC's "gold" standard breeding program?!?! Rest assured my birds are lacking that "gold" standard DNA and appear to be doing just fine.
I encourage people to implement a little common sense and think for themselves. I too have followed up with well recognized poultry vets like Dr. Marsh of OSU as well as professors at OSU and they highly recommended refraining from protien diets above 24%, stating that it could cause problems!
As for feeding mature stock, anything above 18-20% is again a waste. I try to keep my feed around 18%.

Thank you Joe.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Pumping higher protein feeds is not the answer to crap genetics. If you have to spend more money on the protein levels that are required for gamebirds, then you need to find a new strain of Buckeyes. I feed chicks on a 22% starter, then have put them on an 18% layer, even the cockerels, and everyone fills out just fine. At 6 months, when I am starting to cull (and I know some say that is too early, I have space requirements to consider for doing this), my birds, both cockerels and pullets are not just in the range of weights they should be but pushing to the higher end, and this is while also being pastured.
As Joe said, they are just going to poop out the excess and that is money wasted. So, if you are rolling in the dough and couldn't care what the cost is, go for it, but over 22% and 18% is just no necessary.

 

[poltroon]

For what it's worth, maybe it's different for y'all in the midwest, but all the feeds I choose from are about the same cost regardless of the percentage protein. What drives the cost up is organic or GMO-free, and people pick those or don't for their own reasons. (I'm using the King brand Pro/Am food out here in California, and I'm paying a bit more for it because the feed store is stocking it just for me. I can't say if that's wise or not but it's what I do.)

I also would say this:

It's fine to have a difference of opinion and to lay out your case for what has worked for you and why you think that is. I don't understand the need for personal attacks. Nothing turns me off faster.

There is no need to call anyone's bird "crap genetics." (It's also questionable science to claim that... does the higher protein make a difference or not?)

There will always be differences of opinion. Have pride in what you do, lay out your ideas and have the confidence not to worry about how other people think. Don't undermine yourself by getting angry and oddly personal because someone else does it a different way.

 

[Blueface]

Just weighed 3 of my 22-23 week old cockerels... 7 lbs, 6.13 lbs and 7.2lbs. that darn 22% protien starter feed must have not worked?!?! I had several large males but didn't want to play in the much needed rain any longer. Many of the pullets are already standard weight!

Let's face it, these Buckeyes are NOT Turkeys, they are NOT game fowl, they are a large dual purpose breed that is supposed to be a slow to moderate grower! I know some people want to butcher Buckeye cockerels at 14-16 weeks expecting great weight gains but why the rush?!?!? You can feed a less expensive 20-22% feed a few weeks longer, produce a meatier bird and save money, too. Whoever put this 16 weeks to maturity number that I've read about, out there to the public for the Buckeye didn't know what they were saying!
Most meat bird feeds used for CornishRocks is no more than 22% so why do they feel more protein is the solution for the Buckeye?!?!? Let's consider what the ALBC has said about the Buckeye and their "Heritage" nonsense.....the breed is considered a slow grower. That means they don't fully mature at 16 weeks of age but I am sure you can get an ounce or two more weight on a poorly breed Buckeye using 28-30% feed.....it isn't gonna get 1 full pound like some people claim they do!

 

[Minniechickmama]

FWIW, yes, in the midwest, we pay more for feed as the protein goes higher, and we pay more if we want non-GMO or organic. My feed price is a difference of 13.50/50# bag for layer and 16.00 for chick starter. Game bird is even more than that, but thankfully, I only feed that to the turkeys for which is it made, and it is a 28% protein.

 

[poltroon]

I can't touch any feed around here for less than $16.99/ 50 lbs. Chick starter is actually less than the layer here.

I do a game show meeting with my 4-H kids every year, and I always like to include a category that a new member might get like "chickens in film" or "chicken idioms." I stumped them all with the 'That's chicken feed' idiom. They couldn't believe it meant or had ever meant an insignificant amount of money!

 

[gjensen]

I have had this same debate before, and the problem is that some breeders are pushing the idea. The idea is founded in the comments of the ALBC Buckeye project.

I do not have Buckeyes, but I am familiar with this topic.

The higher protein feeds can be a waste, and for some breeds, harmful.

My experience was that up to 8wks, there was a measurable difference between feeds. By 12, 16, and 20wks, the average was the same or close between the higher protein feeds and not. Genetics rule at the end of the day, if they are being fed a quality ration with no deficiencies. There is a point where the extra protein is a waste, and a waste of money. The differences seen @ 8wks are lost as the others catch up. I am saying 8 wks, but it is more when they are feathered out than an age.

What is more, is that it is more about the amino acid profile than a number on a bag. Also not all bagged feed is the same.

I do prefer a slightly higher % ration when they are reared solely on grass. Where I am the grasses are coarse and low protein. It is making up approximately 15-20% of their intake. There is a measurable difference up to and around the peak of their growth curve, and they molt into their adult feathers. The difference is lost again, as the others catch up. Again, at the end of the day, genetics rule.

Another time I feed a higher protein (than necessary) feed is during breeding season. The reason is that the best breeding ration that I can get my hands on is a game bird breeding ration. This choice is more about availability than anything else. I credit the results to the total ration rather than the %protein. The measurable difference in this case is in the chicks. There was absolutely no difference in fertility, and a minor difference in hatchability. The real difference was in the chicks themselves. They were larger, more vibrant chicks. Again, I attribute this to the quality of the ration overall.

Personally, a big consideration for me, is what is available to me that is fresh. Readily available, but also isn't sitting on the shelves gathering dust.

I am no poultry nutritionist, but I have ran several side by side comparisons through the years. I have always liked to know what worked best, and have never listened to what I was told. I like to see for myself. I still like to try things.

The conclusion that I have come to is get the best, and fresh feed that you can get locally. Purchase what is appropriate for what you are raising, an follow the directions on the bag. Throw them some hulled sunflowers every now and then, and let them out to get some sun and greens. The best supplement I ever found was to open the coop door.

 

[Eepster]

I am going to get some Buckeyes this spring

 

[Blueface]

Big healthy chicks come from healthy well fed and well bred, genetically sound brood stock. I maintain the same feed ratio year round and consistently have strong healthy chicks, consistent laying production, consistent fertility, consistent hatching rates, and consistent exhibition results.