The Buckeye Thread

[HappyBuckeye]

One of the principles you need to keep in mind is that genetic diversity equals variation. If you want everyone to look different, then genetic variation is the way to go. If you want them to look the same, then genetic variation is your enemy. The purpose of standard breeding is to reduce the genetic variation and to set a type so that at either extreme, there is very little difference between individuals.

I would recommend that you look at various Buckeye lines. Go to some shows and see what's out there. Surf the web and the forums and look at LOTs of pictures of Buckeyes to see ones you like. It's overwhelming at first, but after you do it for a while (I was over six months web surfing before I bought my first chick) you begin to figure out what it is that you are looking for and who has it. Once you know what you want and where to get it, place a couple orders from the same breeder, cull rigorously, and give it a go. If you need "new" blood, order from your original source (because you picked a good one to start with, right?) and add them to your flock. As I said to Chris, I don't know what the advantage is to buying from two lines IF you are able to start with a good line of spiral bred Buckeyes to begin with. Just continue the closed flock breeding program that they had started. After all, that's what the original breeder is likely doing. Right? Why mess up a good thing with an outcross?

Thanks Marengoite, I haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes from different posts yet, but your last two posts on this topic really hit the nail on the head. I'm new to showing and breeding for show, but not completely new to chickens and breeding to the standards. It's funny how the modern theory is to have "genetic diversity", which as you well stated is for the purpose of variation when the goal of breeders breeding to the SoP is to eliminate variation. As I see it, the only reason for doing an out cross is if your line has lost a required trait through careless breeding.

When in doubt, I try to go back for evidence based, breeding techniques. One of the best resources I've found is the Master breeder of Buckeye, Mrs. Nettie Metcalf herself. Take a look at what she said about in-breeding in the Poultry Success October, 1917 issue. Here's the link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cc...epage&q=nettie metcalf corner of yard&f=false

"The back yard was fenced and there were big picket gates on the place which nearly always stood open, so I got a boy to help me unhinge a couple and carry them across two corners of the back yard; then I borrowed a couple of big boxes for coops, and what more was needed? I penned up two pairs in these small enclosures. Had I to do this over again, I would have started with one pair, but I was afraid of in-breeding in those days, so I doubled my troubles by starting with two pairs, thus getting the defects of four progenitors instead of two.
My! What a flock I raised that year! No wonder my friends laughed! Green legs and feathered legs, buff chicks, black chicks and even red-and-black barred chicks; single combs and pea combs, and no combs at all, but fighters from way back."
I don't know about you, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel. My first year of hatching Buckeyes I just flock mated the best ones in the same pen and figured I'd pick the best ones from that. Boy was that a mess. This last year I did much better, took a single pair of the best I originally had to start working on the type and color just as Nettie said she would have started with. Thanks for sharing and helping to explain what my gut instincts were telling me.

 

[HappyBuckeye]

HappyBuckeye: I found that crossing a game rooster over Buckeye hens produced a larger bird. Crossing a Buckeye rooster over a game hen produced birds about the same size or smaller. I'm not surprised on your results for that one, it's the female that controls body size. Which games were you using to cross? I would be concerned with the shape of the head and body depending on which games you used. As with all breeds of chickens, the games have been crossed and re-crossed. There are many game breeders that like the look of the long skinny heads with eyes that look forward instead of the head and hooded eyes the Buckeyes are supposed to have. All games as with other chicken breeds are not the same. We have several hundred game chickens on the farm. We do eat them, but they do not make an impressive table carcass. For me, unless I was using a good Indian game (Cornish) to improve the breast size, I wouldn't try that one. Even with that, you would be messing with the back being more narrow, with a sloped back and wrong tail angle.

There have been breeders to cross breed Cornish into the breed, RIR & even Chantecler into the breed, & who knows what else. Some of this cross breeding has been done irresponsibly. Yes, I'm not a big fan of out crossing if you are trying to keep a pure line of Buckeyes. If you're breeding for the table or just to produce laying hens, that's different. Maybe some people have more experience with that, but probably more often than not it just introduces genetics that must be bred back out.

What is most important is the body underneath all those feathers. Did you pick up and feel any of the birds at Columbus (i.e. evaluate them hands-on)? This is most important in evaluating a bird vs. another bird. Most exhibitors will allow you to hold their bird if you ask them. A good judge at a show will sometimes go back and forth between birds comparing this trait and that trait. No, like I said, I'm new to showing, not sure what's allowed and not allowed. Also, chicken people can by funny. I thought it best just to avoid that, though I was curious if any of those birds were up to weight and had a good body because of the fluffiness. Take a look at the frizzles, they fill up a cage nice, but when you pick them up, they weigh about as much as a hamster. I think it's a good thing to see judges going back and forth between the birds especially if they are paying close attention to the firmness of breast and leg muscles.

It is the body that makes a Buckeye a Buckeye. You cannot eat color or feathers. A well known long-time Java breeder once said he tells folks, "If you have a Java that meets all the criteria as set forth in the Standard, with proper shape of back, proper back length, strong yellow soles on the feet, proper tail angle, a good comb and good wing carriage, but that bird is black with green and purple polka dots, you still have a good Black Java." Type is all important to the breed. I agree, I keep Buckeyes specifically because of the body. However, from reading the breed history and even the breed histories of other red breeds like the RIRs, I know how difficult it is to get the correct red coloring with the correct slate under-coloring and keep it. I think those that focus on improving type while keeping the good color will fare better than those that lose the good coloring in the process of trying to get the right type.

Sure , there are problems with cushions on some Buckeye females, wing carriage with wings pointed down and angles of tails too low and too high. Unless related to a problem with the body type, these problems can be corrected more easily than things like too short a back, too narrow body, legs too short (all of which I have noticed too & I did handle the birds) -- I suspect a problem here or there is related to one or the other but not always. I think we agree here. I've seen a wide variety of Buckeyes in the show pens. This just tells me that the breed still needs focused attention and quality breeders to reach lines of Buckeyes that consistently produce SoP quality show birds as well as utility fowl. The first step is studying the SoP, but even that seems to give wide interpretation for some breeders. Ideally, when you look down the show pen row of Buckeyes, you should see uniformity and consistency of size, shape, and color that only vary by a few degrees. It should be very difficult for the judges to pick a winner because they are all exceptional specimens and there should not be huge variations between one show and another.

I have bred my Buckeyes primarily for body type and rate of growth. The best color bird of mine will almost never be the best one overall (i.e. body type). I tell people this who get birds from me. The reason for this is because this is our food; we do not buy commercial chicken. It is important for me to have good bodies and good rate of growth. When I started with Buckeyes, the first few years, the size and type were there sometimes, more the exception than the rule. The last 3 years or so, however, most of my birds make weight and type. I think honesty is the best policy.

I agree with you about re-creating a Buckeye for the same reasons you state. Good Luck with your Buckeyes.- Same to you, and thank for taking the time to share your experiences!

*edited by Staff*

 

[buffalogal]

So much to learn here. What I have is a trio from one breeder and a dozen 12 week olds from a second breeder. I figure on picking the best and going from there.

Part of what has me spooked is that I have some American Bresse chicks. Knowing that all are closely related (Greenfire only brought them in a few years ago) I ordered a dozen eggs from each of two breeders. One set was a bust. Nothing developed. Postal damage? Who knows. Second set the seller was kind enough to mark eggs from pen #1 and #2. I got 3 chicks from pen 1. All three developed serious leg issues and had to be put down. Pen 2 gave me 2 healthy chicks - but they are siblings. I can presume that the chicks from pen 1 might have a defect that is genetic since no other chicks in that hatch had issues. Makes me nervous....putting down deformed chicks is awful but necessary.

I prefer to start out with at least two trios from different sources, but even one trio from a single source is better than trying to start with a pair. With any line, the phenotype (what we see on the outside) may be covering some unpleasant surprises carried in the genotype. (the genetic code that is passed on to the offspring) One of the breeds I raise I've had for over 25 years now, and linebred them for over 15 years before I added birds from another source. (to introduce the rose comb gene) That particular variety was hard to find, especially in the days before "the interwebs", so when I discovered a source, I blended them into my flock in the same way the chart shows adding the new animals (signified by the block in the lower left hand corner, colored light gray in the chart), except that I worked on adding the new trait to all three lines at the same time. From the standpoint of preserving "my" line that was risky, but I really wanted that single comb to just go away.

There have been a few issues that have cropped up in that breed since then, and I expect it will take a few more years to completely get them settled in, but that's the interesting part about breeding animals.

I agree, it is awful to have to cull chicks, but it is one of those actions we tacitly agree to when we take up breeding. Unless the bird is suffering or the defect is such that the bird will never be thrifty, I try to allow faulty birds to grow up so that they can later be sold to people who are unconcerned about such things. Of course, sometimes that backfires, and for whatever reason I end up attached to the less than perfect bird and it stays for the rest of it's life as an "omelette breeder".

 

[Minniechickmama]

Thank you all for the quick replies! So could that chicken be a runt? She's definetly smaller.

I wouldn't worry too much about her size, she looks to only be about 4 months old. She will fill out more over the next few months. I love the leg color on her! Nice and bright yellow. Do you have other Buckeyes? Those that you know are cockerels? I can look to see if I have some that age in my photos to show you some differences. Mostly experience will help you figure out who is what, but there are a lot of people who ask the same thing who haven't raised a lot of chickens.

 

[MyPetNugget]

I wouldn't worry too much about her size, she looks to only be about 4 months old. She will fill out more over the next few months. I love the leg color on her! Nice and bright yellow. Do you have other Buckeyes? Those that you know are cockerels? I can look to see if I have some that age in my photos to show you some differences. Mostly experience will help you figure out who is what, but there are a lot of people who ask the same thing who haven't raised a lot of chickens.

thanks!

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[Freeholder]

Buffalogal, I'm playing catch-up on this thread, and saw that you mentioned you were going to post a picture of a Dominique/Buckeye cross bird you have -- I would really like to see that picture! I'm trying to decide what direction to go with my flock. Right now I have some (hatchery) Golden-laced Wyandottes and Black Australorps. I'm trying to decide between Buckeyes, Dominiques, RC Red Dorkings, and Chanteclers to replace what I have. My birds are for utility, eggs and meat, and need to have rose, pea, or cushion combs.

Thanks!

Kathleen

 

[JoshU]

It's 38 degrees and raining and all my buckeyes are out like its 70 and sunny. Last week had our first snow and they acted the same. A lady from another forum lives in Alaska and it around -30 and her buckeyes are doing just fine.I work outside rain or shine snow or hail and I know I would rather be warm and cozy but these birds don't seem to care what the weather throws at them. I love these birds.

 

[buckeyechicken]

It's 38 degrees and raining and all my buckeyes are out like its 70 and sunny. Last week had our first snow and they acted the same. A lady from another forum lives in Alaska and it around -30 and her buckeyes are doing just fine.I work outside rain or shine snow or hail and I know I would rather be warm and cozy but these birds don't seem to care what the weather throws at them. I love these birds.

JoshU we are at 52 degrees right now but looking for colder weather by the weekend. Mine are acting normal and My egg production has not slowed down. I just hatched out 45 chicks and they are doing great. Moved 10 to the big brooder and will move the rest in about 4 weeks. I to work out in the all types of weather, doing auctions, and my regular job, I love the 58 degree weather we are having.