The Buckeye Thread

[Arielle]

On a previous post he stated he purchased them at Meyers.

THank you-- I obviously didn't remember.

Does anyone have info to compare lines on dressing weight??

 

[cgmccary]

What is the advantages and disadvantages of pairs vs trios vs clan group breeding setup.

For long term goals, one of the things Don Schrider taught me is that breeding is not about mating the "right two" birds together. Instead, it is about managing relationships in your line so you have the diversity to go on indefinitely. He always stressed to me that it is about selecting and culling, not matching breeders. This will improve your line over time - keep the best of each group/ family, not simply the best of the best which may all come from one mating group (this is difficult to see and do short term as you always want show birds). I do not pair birds or trios but rather, I maintain three distinct groups and have started spiral mating. If I wanted short term, fast gains, or if I were not in it for the long haul, then I would pair only the best birds (no matter their relationships). For my goals long term, over years, breeding only the very best individuals may not be the in the best interest for my line. I want to improve each group.

If you are just starting out but are in it for the long term, you want to cull males harder than you do the females until you get the number of females up to the size flock you want to maintain. Do not breed brother to sister.

 

[slfarms]

I agree with what you are saying about the spiral breeding part Chris, but that comes in after a person has selective bred for specific traits with line breeding. Then with spiral you can utilize each line to improve a trait that is lacking in one of your lines.

For beginners it is better to be selective of their starting stock, envision the type required by SOP. Then work from there. With spiral you can have recessive traits pop out that will have to be fixed. And that may be overwhelming for a person new to breeding.

But then again breeding any chicken can be a gamble on what hatches out.

 

[slfarms]

By selecting you are picking traits from your flock and using them to correct the flaws you see in the other bird.

The culling is for if the mating doesn't work. I send mine off with a family that uses them to feed their children. The Roos at least. The hens I sell as layers.

 

[fowlman01]

Excluding the method you use to mate, the two most important decisions a breeder makes are the selection for the breeders and maybe even more importantly the culling. there are several good ways to mate birds. I believe the "eye" to see these potential matings and of course a bit of luck, is what makes those great matings we get on occasion. I doubt that a novice would have selected the male New Hamp I used this season as an example. He had a number of faults, the biggest being a bit short of body. I usually do pairs or trios when mating, but this year I put him with 8 females and the results are quite good to amazing. The mating produced good males and females. and the best part is that there were not just one or two good birds. I have shown these in 7 different shows with different birds each time and until this last show not one bird more than once. The poorest placing so far (as a group) has been Res American. She was Res American in one show and Res of Show in the other show. (dual show Bakersfield CA).

Bottom line from me is there is a number of ways to breed, but if you don't keep great records, you will eventually go backward. You will go backward at some point anyway, but usually we can advance again after we correct our mistakes. The trick is to not make the kind of mistake that loses you several years of breeding.

Walt

 

[cgmccary]

I agree with what you are saying about the spiral breeding part Chris, but that comes in after a person has selective bred for specific traits with line breeding. Then with spiral you can utilize each line to improve a trait that is lacking in one of your lines.

For beginners it is better to be selective of their starting stock, envision the type required by SOP. Then work from there. With spiral you can have recessive traits pop out that will have to be fixed. And that may be overwhelming for a person new to breeding.

But then again breeding any chicken can be a gamble on what hatches out.

Yes, I agree with you. I am speaking to long term breeding strategy. In the beginning, the beginner is acquiring stock, and you may want to get stock from more than one source. You are hatching and seeing what you've got, what develops. If you have good results, then you can go for some years simply line-breeding what you've got (and there is no need for you to obtain other stock -- just be patient & work with what you have).

I started with simply a Buckeye pair (7 months old) so I did not have choices of pairing this with that (nor was my thinking geared as such). I was not thinking long term but rather, "Do I like this breed enough to go further?" and that was it. It was simply a curiosity for me. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I started with any sort of plan or much of an idea. I evolved. The Buckeye male I started with was a rather poor specimen in most regards, but the female was much better. Since I had never seen any others, I did not really realize it (except I knew what the SOP said) and was just very happy & proud to have them.

All the information (and breeders) that/ who is/are out here now was not available to me & were not out there then; also, there were not any Buckeyes at the shows anywhere around me. However, the breed's genetics were there in my Buckeye pair & I knew that where I got my pair, the line was pure and traced way back. I liked the breed enough to go further. I realized it was more about selecting and culling from there (i.e. what you have) and not so much that you start with stock that looks necessarily great as long as the genetics are somewhere there. Let's be honest, most folks are not in it for the long term so most of what I am conveying is telling what I am doing. As with most of you, I have supplied birds to a decent number of people, most of whom are no longer breeding Buckeyes.

Most Buckeyes can be traced back to just a few original sources so I have found, at least with mine, there are not very many recessive traits popping out. For instance, I have never had a single comb Buckeye. Sure, there are problems with the breed, as any breed. I am still in the beginning breeding stage and is why I keep my concentration on body type.

 

[slfarms]

One thing the beginner should remember is that when purchasing from several individuals you preferably want the breeders to have lines that are related even if distantly (1-2 generations). This will help alleviate recessive traits popping out that you will have to work years to fix.

In some cases you are not able to find such relationships and that is fine. Start with a good foundation and work from there.

Like Chris stated the end goal is to get your stock type and traits solid so that you don't need to add new blood in the future.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:

ANother good discussion

 

[Minniechickmama]

I would have to disagree with the recommendation of starting with a few different lines. I thought that way when I started with chickens and decided to start breeding, but the more information I have gotten from folks with years of experience, like Bob Blosl and others is to stick with getting stock from a good line and sticking with it and cull those who won't contribute to your long-term breeding goals. If one were to want to develop their own line and take years to do it, then go ahead and use 3 or 4 lines to mix together. But for me, I want results a lot sooner than that, or potentially so. I have brought in Buckeyes from other breeders from what I started, thinking it might help to eliminate a couple of things I have encountered with the birds I have. After seeing how they grew out, I don't see that taking a step back, or possibly several, is what I want to do.
So, I will cull those birds who don't meet the top traits I cull first. Size is one thing I won't sacrifice. Color is subjective depending on what I have to breed with. Overall condition is important as well.

 

[cgmccary]

I would have to disagree with the recommendation of starting with a few different lines. I thought that way when I started with chickens and decided to start breeding, but the more information I have gotten from folks with years of experience, like Bob Blosl and others is to stick with getting stock from a good line and sticking with it and cull those who won't contribute to your long-term breeding goals. If one were to want to develop their own line and take years to do it, then go ahead and use 3 or 4 lines to mix together. But for me, I want results a lot sooner than that, or potentially so. I have brought in Buckeyes from other breeders from what I started, thinking it might help to eliminate a couple of things I have encountered with the birds I have. After seeing how they grew out, I don't see that taking a step back, or possibly several, is what I want to do.
So, I will cull those birds who don't meet the top traits I cull first. Size is one thing I won't sacrifice. Color is subjective depending on what I have to breed with. Overall condition is important as well.

I do agree with you on size. From my own experience, I must disagree on different "lines" when starting out. We are talking about starting out with Buckeyes. Your principle may be true for most breeds; however, most Buckeyes originated from a few sources (strains) so it is not such a mix to cross lines of the same strain. The gene pool is rather small. If the different lines all originated in one way or another with say for example, Urch, the same strain, then even generations removed, they will not be a true outcross. My experience with crossing such Buckeye lines from the same strain (i.e. with some of the same origins), has been positive. A couple of other folks, with years of experience & who now are Buckeye breeders, have related a similar experience. How many Buckeye lines contain Urch strain somewhere in their past? The key is to select and cull. I can see where this would be different in for example a RIR Mohawk strain or a German N.H. strain -- crossing in another completely different strain is something all together different (almost like crossing in an entirely different breed)-- and what I take from the folks with years of experience who advise to the contrary.

More important is that the person you are getting from birds from is honest with you about their origins and knows their origins & make-up.

Once established, I agree with you there is no reason to cross lines if you manage your line properly (& you might be inviting problems you did not have before).