The Buckeye Thread

[poltroon]

I want to thank Chris for getting his birds out to show. It may feel like if your birds are the only representatives of the breed that it was a fool's errand, but the judges see the birds and the judges remember, not just year to year, but place to place. My daughter is the only person showing Buckeyes in our area, and judges have commented to her about where she is in comparison to y'all and encouraged her to keep going with this breed. Every time they get out, it's good for the breed.

(They're probably also trying to talk her out of the real fool's errand, Golden Laced Wyandottes, which are the other LF she shows, but that's a different story.

)

My daughter's wins with hers are even less impressive than a single breeder bringing a handful of birds to a large open show. I'll still report them, because this is a message board and it's just fun to have an excuse to chime in now and again.

 

[Minniechickmama]

One thing I think we could agree on is that all Buckeyes descended from Nettie Metcalf.

Obviously, there are two schools of thought on how one should begin with their Buckeye breeding program: 1.) obtain one known line of birds from a breeder of good reputation and continue to selectively breed toward the SOP, and 2.) obtain birds from 2 or more lines to mix together to start then breed toward the standard. I know which I am following, and I know what I would recommend if I am asked on how someone should proceed, and it is okay if we do not agree. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I just think 1 is an easier/shorter road to get where one would want to go.

Yes, breeders should be honest in their dealings when they sell their stock to others. It would be wonderful if all breeders were, but we know that doesn't always happen, some people are just out to make money. Luckily, those ones are also those who don't last long once their reputation is made.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
I do not agree. In truth, all Buckeye strains have not descended from Mrs. Nettie Metcalf. Duane Urch's strain DID descend from Mrs. Metcalf & can be traced back to the origin. Mr. Urch has had Buckeyes since 1959 and never mixed / graded in any other breed to his strain. Urch's strain is the purest original Buckeye. Of course, many lines go back to Urch. For instance, the ALBC used at least 1/2 Urch derived birds in their recovery effort. Even the late Mr. Dennis Pearce's line (WA) was 15 years Urch removed. Sandhill, Doug Empie, Rev. Romig (PA & NY) & Bill Fitch lines are all Urch strain.

In the 1970s, Rollie Blockberger and Ed Mongold recreated the Buckeye and mostly, the other known strains go back to this re-creation which is not in any way related to Metcalf's original Buckeyes. This should not matter to the non-purists.

 

[slfarms]

I don't think anyone can state that not all lines are "not" descended from Nettie. To prove that out we would have to DNA test what is considered a pure line against all other lines in existence today.

In 2008 Mr. Urch added new blood to his flock so IMO his would no longer be considered "pure" or direct descendants either.

I've never heard of anyone re-creating the wheel in buckeyes. What did they use as we've all had the discussions in the past about what Nettie "might" have used. As we all know what she had available in her time are completely different looking birds today or even back in the 70's. I would love to see the literature around Rollie and Eds work.

I like this conversation makes my brain hum with questions

 

[cgmccary]

Quote: Mr. Urch just obtained stock from breeders he had sold stock to previously so he did not cross lines. It was not in 2008 but 2009. Urch's strain still remains the most pure in terms of going back to the originator. As far as the cockerel he got from me, it was not new blood but from my pure Urch group which I still maintain today. I still have the original Buckeye hen I procured from him, and she is 8 years old. Mr. Urch is one breeder who never grades other breeds into these breeds. Managing so many breeds, he cannot produce show winners in every breed he keeps but as far as the pure genetics of those breeds, he is emphatic about not crossing in other breeds. The same cannot be said of all the other Buckeye breeders.

I do not know whose birds came from where except the ones I reported in my posts. I have gotten conflicting reports of other's Buckeyes. I doubt many folks know where their birds came from as far back as 1959 unless they got them from Mr. Urch and then, he can tell you where they came from prior to that.

It really doesn't matter as long as your birds match the SOP unless your a purist, but let's not ignore the elephant in the room. This aspect has never come up before, & I just assumed everyone knew about the recreation in the 1970s. Why bring it up? Because of the statement that we can all agree that all Buckeyes descended from Nettie Metcalf. This is simply not true.

Unless you can say and know the source of your Buckeyes and trace them before the 1970s as I can because mine came from Mr. Urch, who I trust & everyone knows had his Buckeyes since 1959 and where he acquired them . . . then I agree, other than a DNA test (and you would have to compare them with Urch's), how would you know? Would it matter to you?

It is my understanding the 1970s was a true recreation using the same breeds Metcalf used herself . . . what does it matter?

 

[cgmccary]

I think I read a quote that Urch had Buckeyes since 1959 and he was misquoted as Urch's Buckeyes go back to 1957 (he said this himself) in a note -- this was years before I was even born . . .

 

[slfarms]

My understanding after doing some research is Ed and Rollie's project for recreation was Bantam Buckeyes not large fowl.

I guess it would matter in regards to the DNA test if some are questioning the lineage of all buckeye lines out there today except for Urch. It would be interesting to see the results.

I don't question my birds lineage. I know what lines were used and that those lines go back to Nettie's.

Now if we would like to discuss breeding the bantam bucks that would be an interesting discussion. I've read and heard about several approaches that were used and did research to try and determine if there are actually bantam birds out there today to mimic the large fowl buckeyes. But, I decided why recreate when there are lines out there already that can be worked with to improve the type and color.

 

[Apdeb]

I have a pair of bantams they are so cute very smart and talky

 

[slfarms]

The bantams are cute apdeb. I have a pair myself.

 

[cgmccary]

My understanding after doing some research is Ed and Rollie's project for recreation was Bantam Buckeyes not large fowl.

I guess it would matter in regards to the DNA test if some are questioning the lineage of all buckeye lines out there today except for Urch. It would be interesting to see the results.

I don't question my birds lineage. I know what lines were used and that those lines go back to Nettie's. Then you have Urch strain too?

Now if we would like to discuss breeding the bantam bucks that would be an interesting discussion. I've read and heard about several approaches that were used and did research to try and determine if there are actually bantam birds out there today to mimic the large fowl buckeyes. But, I decided why recreate when there are lines out there already that can be worked with to improve the type and color.

Mr. Blockberger and Mr. Mongold recreated both Bantam and LF Buckeyes. I understand their Buckeyes were very good specimens of the breed, did well at the shows and a lot of today's lines go back to their recreation.