The Buckeye Thread

[007medic]

Quote: I couldn't agree more with starting with good "broodstock". I think you may be in error in thinking that the feed is an attempt to extend development beyond what is there genetically. If the potential is not there genetically, it can't be recovered through feed. Think of genetics and genetic potential as an elastic band. There is a potential for expansion but that expansion is limited by the amount of pressure to expand. At some point, further pressure yields no further results- the potential has been maximized. Likewise, differing feeding programs yield differing results on differing timelines. I agree, if it ain't there genetically, no magic feed will make it come for all the wishing in the world but not providing every opportunity for development is also short changing yourself and your birds.


For example, here are two Buckeyes from two very different lines. They were raised under identical conditions with identical feeds. One line came from breeders that were more selective for early gains and meat qualities. The other line had breeders that selected for other qualities. Clearly it doesn't matter what you feed poor genetics, they'll never catch up, hence the necessity for starting with good stock. Serious hobbyists should know where their stock comes from- what the goals, philosophies, and practices are of the breeders they are considering purchasing from and what their own personal goals are for keeping the breed. I would go one step further though, once you have selected your stock, it is your own breeding decisions that will guide the development of your birds and line from there on. You'll make some mistakes. You'll have some strokes of genius. In all of it, you'll have the joy of pursuing your own ideal of the breed.

 

[Blueface]

I'm not in error. For anyone that thinks that gamebird feed is needed to get the buckeye off on the right start is either 1) sadly being mislead or 2) have birds that are genetically inferior because for some reason they don't develop properly on standard chick feeds. Either or...who knows but this nonsense regarding the buckeye having to be started gamebird feed is just that.....nonsense. Chickens more specifically buckeyes are not rubber bands, so the comparison is invalid. It all boils down to how much money in feed that won't really matter.

How old is that picture? I can go out and butcher cockerels and say "look at the difference?!?!" When pics like that are taken its usually comparing the very best speciman with the very worst to try and make a minimal point. I've observed BIG birds in exhibition pens and them being butchered is probably there best look!

 

[007medic]

Have a care Joe, absolutism is the position taken by the inflexible and irrational. Your arguments are not in line with the basic dogmas of genetics and the fluidity of genetic expression in the setting of envirionment. Cost of feed really doesn't enter the discussion here. If you would like to know the true details of that picture, you can pm me.

 

[Blueface]

"Have a care, Joe"....oh I believe I care quite a bit. So much so, that I have full intentions on helping people save money as well as produce decent birds. I try and lead by example and I do believe that I have done so. Money is always taken into consideration when discussing feeds with excess protein because after all that is what drives much of the cost in feed. I'm here to help the beginner, nothing more. So by saying an ultra high protein diet is not necessary for a buckeye to develop properly is not correct; well shame on all of that research conducted by the feed corporations and formulators for doing there jobs wrong!!!! If you want to debate genetics, go take a look at my website and then tell me that I don't know what a buckeye should look like, how a buckeye should be bred, and how a buckeye should be fed!! Then you come back and we'll debate genetic expression. I'm willing to help whom ever asks for help and you would be amazed when common sense meets reality.

edited by staff

 

[Blueface]

I'm just keeping the discussion in context for proven results in poultry husbandry. So the advances in the last 3-4 decades of poultry research isn't enough for it to be scientifically grounded? I see......good argument.

Sure there are other approaches, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. You can experiment all you want but rather than trying to enlist every newbie that crosses your path with this high protein idea, produce some meaningful results that differ from established practices. You must remember that buckeyes are indeed chickens and not turkeys. You are sharing your methods and I'm merely sharing mine. Let the people decide. I have a funny feeling that the method that produces good results that leave a couple dollar bills in their pockets might be the definitive route.


edited by staff

 

[Marengoite]

Please link this "documented empirical study" you allude to so we can see the evidence, not just your claims. Apparently more people than Joe share this particular vision and he has the show points to prove it.

Do you have a link to your web site so we can compare pictures of your birds and Joe's birds and decide for ourselves? That's about as empirical as it gets.

edited by staff

 

[Blueface]

Good points, but getting the breed in the spotlight for its favorable appearance, disposition and utility as Nettie intended is far more important than "points". I'm just happy I've been fortunate enough to do it. There is much work that still needs to be done and I'm going to have a wonderful time doing it!!

 

[slfarms]

I couldn't agree more with starting with good "broodstock". I think you may be in error in thinking that the feed is an attempt to extend development beyond what is there genetically. If the potential is not there genetically, it can't be recovered through feed. Think of genetics and genetic potential as an elastic band. There is a potential for expansion but that expansion is limited by the amount of pressure to expand. At some point, further pressure yields no further results- the potential has been maximized. Likewise, differing feeding programs yield differing results on differing timelines. I agree, if it ain't there genetically, no magic feed will make it come for all the wishing in the world but not providing every opportunity for development is also short changing yourself and your birds. For example, here are two Buckeyes from two very different lines. They were raised under identical conditions with identical feeds. One line came from breeders that were more selective for early gains and meat qualities. The other line had breeders that selected for other qualities. Clearly it doesn't matter what you feed poor genetics, they'll never catch up, hence the necessity for starting with good stock. Serious hobbyists should know where their stock comes from- what the goals, philosophies, and practices are of the breeders they are considering purchasing from and what their own personal goals are for keeping the breed. I would go one step further though, once you have selected your stock, it is your own breeding decisions that will guide the development of your birds and line from there on. You'll make some mistakes. You'll have some strokes of genius. In all of it, you'll have the joy of pursuing your own ideal of the breed.

That picture again? I think it's been posted numerous times and again I beg to ask how do we and newbies know the birds were fed the same, the same age when butchered and were from two different lines? This is getting old. In humans as well as animals it's scientifically been proven that eating to much protein impacts the internal organs and how they function. If you want links I will post them tomorrow. Joes and others vision of the buckeye isn't just "his". If following the SOP which was written in Nettie's time is incorrect then maybe you should ask for it to be amended. I heard rumor it will take five years and multiple wins to show the judges your "vision". The birds have to have the whole package. Type, color, meat and egg production. It seems your approach/desire is for a meat bird. If so raise Cornish or Cornish crosses I hear they produce a fabulous carcass. Enough of the squabbling and let's get down to making the breed what it should be per the SOP and Nettie's vision. A magnificent mahogany bay bird that is dual purpose. Smh

 

[JoshU]

If you'll not tolerate any other vision, approach or ideology, then you're limiting both yourself and the breed, and that my friend is a shame.

I think I will just stick to the American Poultry Association and their Standard Of Perfection. In my humble opinion, that is the only ideology that matters when it comes to raising quality Buckeyes.

 

[Judy]

STAFF NOTE​

Could we please avoid personal attacks, and other descriptions of each others' character and personality, and instead confine ourselves to discussing aspects of the birds, please?