The Buckeye Thread

[gootziecat]

Hellbender

I'm rootin' for you.

 

[varidgerunner]

Quote: Quote: Was Cornish used to make buckeyes?

 

[hellbender]

Hellbender

I'm rootin' for you.

Thank you. Being from West Virginia, you understand why I don't utilize the medical facilities in this state. I'd rather go to a veterinarian than Davis Memorial in Elkins and the VA hospital in Clarksburg is worse ...I'll even pass on my ALMA MATER..

 

[gootziecat]

And howdy. LOL. Same here.

 

[varidgerunner]

Ok, so I went and did some reading. On Wikipedia it says that they were developed using buff cochin, barred rock, and later BBR game. BBR game is not Cornish, (the fowl in my avatar would fall under the category BBR Game). I took it with a grain of salt, because it is Wikipedia after all. They went on to say that "despite" their game heritage they bare confinement well. I guess whoever wrote that is not familiar with the way gamefowl are kept, most bare confinement quite well even though they are also extremely hardy in a free range environment. So I went a little further and read rom the buckeye breed description on the livestock conservancy site. It said that the buckeye's founder was adamant that there was no Cornish, even though the body style was similar. Given their comb, it is possible that the BBR game was of one of the "roundhead" varieties possessing the peacomb. Many of those roundheads were simply asil crosses, which would be dipping from the same genetic pool that Cornish were drawn from. (And if you ever raise asil it's easy to see where the friendly nature of the Cornish comes from) Through selection for body type, it would be possible to go back to that style. Sorry for the interruption, but this stuff fascinates me.

 

[hellbender]

Ok, so I went and did some reading. On Wikipedia it says that they were developed using buff cochin, barred rock, and later BBR game. BBR game is not Cornish, (the fowl in my avatar would fall under the category BBR Game). I took it with a grain of salt, because it is Wikipedia after all. They went on to say that "despite" their game heritage they bare confinement well. I guess whoever wrote that is not familiar with the way gamefowl are kept, most bare confinement quite well even though they are also extremely hardy in a free range environment. So I went a little further and read rom the buckeye breed description on the livestock conservancy site. It said that the buckeye's founder was adamant that there was no Cornish, even though the body style was similar. Given their comb, it is possible that the BBR game was of one of the "roundhead" varieties possessing the peacomb. Many of those roundheads were simply asil crosses, which would be dipping from the same genetic pool that Cornish were drawn from. (And if you ever raise asil it's easy to see where the friendly nature of the Cornish comes from) Through selection for body type, it would be possible to go back to that style. Sorry for the interruption, but this stuff fascinates me.

I enjoy reading such posts. Many Chicken Breed Clubs write a little bit of factual history and then proceed down the rabbit hole. Dog people are generally much worse to re-write breed history. I believe some of the early standards (dogs) were written by folks who simply looked out their window and described what they saw as the best of the breed. Who knows how much of that happens with other stock? I do feel confident that all breeds of domestic animals (including birds) have had considerable behind the barn/coop additions and only genetic markers could come close to telling the real story.

 

[valleychicks]

Ok, so I went and did some reading. On Wikipedia it says that they were developed using buff cochin, barred rock, and later BBR game. BBR game is not Cornish, (the fowl in my avatar would fall under the category BBR Game). I took it with a grain of salt, because it is Wikipedia after all. They went on to say that "despite" their game heritage they bare confinement well. I guess whoever wrote that is not familiar with the way gamefowl are kept, most bare confinement quite well even though they are also extremely hardy in a free range environment. So I went a little further and read rom the buckeye breed description on the livestock conservancy site. It said that the buckeye's founder was adamant that there was no Cornish, even though the body style was similar. Given their comb, it is possible that the BBR game was of one of the "roundhead" varieties possessing the peacomb. Many of those roundheads were simply asil crosses, which would be dipping from the same genetic pool that Cornish were drawn from. (And if you ever raise asil it's easy to see where the friendly nature of the Cornish comes from) Through selection for body type, it would be possible to go back to that style. Sorry for the interruption, but this stuff fascinates me.

I loved reading the Buckeye Breed history on American Buckeye Club site. http://americanbuckeyeclub.blogspot.com/p/breed-history.html
It does say close to the bottom of the page in a *Note that Indian Games are known today as Cornish or Cornish Games.

 

[varidgerunner]

Interesting read. I think it would be a stretch to infer that there was Cornish present based on the written history of the breed's founder. While "Indian Game" was used at the time to refer to what we know as Cornish, it was also used to describe Asils, Shamo and other birds of the time either pure or graded. "China Game" was another popular term. As long as the term's user perceived that bird to come from a place, that name was good enough.

The fact that the bird came from a game breeder strikes a chink in the Cornish theory, it is doubtful that a game breeder would make crosses to, what was at the time an English exhibition bird (that was ill suited for his purposes) It would be more likely that he crossed to an asil either pure or graded, that would commonly fall under the catch phrase "Indian Game". Many of the birds with this same makeup were popular at the time and even earlier and made up the many varieties of American gamefowl known as "roundheads", because of their comb.The time frame and location would lean against the Cornish theory as well They would have been developing at roughly the same time. Cornish 1850s in England, coming to America afterwards and the Buckeye in the late 1880s.

Based on the written history, it is also undeniable that there is some American game present in the "black breasted red cock" that was "half Indian Game" that was used to undoubtedly make the Cochin Plymouth Rock crosses a little more active and good at foraging.

The RIR has Malay in it, Malay being another catch all term at the time for fowl with a certain look, many of which could have been shamo or asil varieties. So it's a pretty common mix for many of the breeds that were developed at the time. I always wondered why there isn't more use of game breeds to fix colors and carriage and lend a little vigor to breeds that may have gone stale. It seems a lot of the early breeds probably gained a little popularity from the little bit of extra vigor the recent game outcrossings had provided.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Interesting read. I think it would be a stretch to infer that there was Cornish present based on the written history of the breed's founder. While "Indian Game" was used at the time to refer to what we know as Cornish, it was also used to describe Asils, Shamo and other birds of the time either pure or graded. "China Game" was another popular term. As long as the term's user perceived that bird to come from a place, that name was good enough.

The fact that the bird came from a game breeder strikes a chink in the Cornish theory, it is doubtful that a game breeder would make crosses to, what was at the time an English exhibition bird (that was ill suited for his purposes) It would be more likely that he crossed to an asil either pure or graded, that would commonly fall under the catch phrase "Indian Game". Many of the birds with this same makeup were popular at the time and even earlier and made up the many varieties of American gamefowl known as "roundheads", because of their comb.The time frame and location would lean against the Cornish theory as well They would have been developing at roughly the same time. Cornish 1850s in England, coming to America afterwards and the Buckeye in the late 1880s.

Based on the written history, it is also undeniable that there is some American game present in the "black breasted red cock" that was "half Indian Game" that was used to undoubtedly make the Cochin Plymouth Rock crosses a little more active and good at foraging.

The RIR has Malay in it, Malay being another catch all term at the time for fowl with a certain look, many of which could have been shamo or asil varieties. So it's a pretty common mix for many of the breeds that were developed at the time. I always wondered why there isn't more use of game breeds to fix colors and carriage and lend a little vigor to breeds that may have gone stale. It seems a lot of the early breeds probably gained a little popularity from the little bit of extra vigor the recent game outcrossings had provided.

Jeff Lay of Ohio has done quite a bit of history research on the breed and has uncovered documents written by the creator of the Buckeye, Nettie Metcalf. Perhaps further discussion with him could shed some light on your question and what you are finding.
As for me, it doesn't take much more to convince me that Cornish was somewhere in the mix if you look at the head, eye, and body carriage especially, along with the tight feathered aspect of the Buckeye breed, which is absent in the other American breeds.

You mentioned the friendliness factor of the Asil that may have contributed to the Buckeye's temperament. I did not know that about them. It is one breed I had considered, but one tight feathered breed is enough for me here in the north (LF Cornish, not the Buckeyes). The other place it could have come from is the Cochin, which in my experience as well as reading in numerous places, is about the most laid back bird I can imagine. I find it impossible otherwise to find any qualities that came from that breed. LOL

I don't put a whole lot of weight into what I read on Wiki, it is not always the experts contributing to that site, and I even knew a teenager who worked as an editor on the site, which scared me to think about. There are also magazine articles written by self-proclaimed experts on breeds and poultry in general who really aren't all they are cracked up to telling people they are. I am just saying'...

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Hellbender I hope everything works out well. they say that if everyone sends good wishes it really does help, so hopefully eveyone on BYC will have you in their thoughts for a complete cure!

And, I 'd be pretty sure that as the modern Buckeyes were re- created from so few birds, there's likely Cornish in them now- from what I read, for pretty sure in the Brown line of Buckeyes, at least.
I participated in a discussion on another forum about the mottling in Russian Orloffs- apparently in the original breed the mottling was different, and perhaps not caused by the mottle gene, but since today's Orloffs are pretty well re-created, the mottling now is caused by the regular mottle gene. So the gene or whatever was responsible in the original breed may be lost, or at least difficult to find again. I wonder how many breeds today still have the genetic makeup of their ancestors. It's especially tricky in chickens, where there are no pedigrees - and if it looks like a breed it is the breed.......... even if the genetic background is completely different.