The Buckeye Thread

[Blueface]

I havent weighed them yet.

The reason why I ask is because it's basic knowledge that hatchery buckeyes aren't much due to poor breeding practices or generally poor quality fowl or the combination there of. I've raised several buckeyes in the past years that started out looking great but to mature into fowl riddled with issues and resulted in NOTHING more than culls. Much effort, time and money has been spent eliminating those issues....even the entirety of those strain causing the issues because the strains were to far gone for the help that they required.

I've owned and bred nearly all of the main breeding strains at one point or another and no that not a single line avaible doesn't have issues...some pretty severe....so I encourage you not to get your hopes to high until they actually mature and you see first hand the pluses and minuses they have. There are a couple strains out there that are given tremendously more credit than they deserve....namely the ALBC and parent stocks..I encourage you to pay close attention to the actual body structure; not so much just weight (proper weight is important but how it's distributed is more important), the vast majority of buckeyes available are not structured properly. Even fewer have the appropraite color with issues ranging from undercolor, very poor surface color (speckled white and even black, multi-shaded, very light shaded), to a couple lines producing many white feathers in the primaries of the wing and even in the tail. Just food for thought.
Its great that you are excited......but don't let that excitement mislead you in thinking all buckeyes will be show winners because very very very few actually are. That is the reality of the breed.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Minniechickmama, I'd like to ask you the same question I asked Blueface above- does it ever happen that a special chick really shines, early on?

I would have to agree with Blueface. Unless there is a serious enough flaw with a Buckeye to cull it out for compost, I raise all of those I hatch for myself and narrow them down over time. If I see size or color issues early on, they go to the parts of the flock that will get sold for eating or laying.
I also agree the time frame of about 6-months is a good time to start looking more closely at them and deciding who starts losing points based on handling and weight and so forth.

Of course, no line is perfect, each has its traits to work on. That is why hatching and raising large numbers is important. Starting with good stock is the first step, but get as many as you can handle raising and be picky. One thing I have found is that chasing after those darker birds can result in too much black showing. I have discussed this with some veteran breeders as well and hear it has been the same way with the RIRs as well. I have seen this from trying out other lines as well that I hoped could help improve color for my own. However, when crossing unrelated lines, you never know how the two are going to blend and may end up with some traits popping out that you never expected. Sometimes those things might not show up until a bird is fully mature, or even after their first molt with color.

 

[Blueface]

 One thing I have found is that chasing after those darker birds can result in too much black showing.  

I don't consider breeding the color that Nettie Metcalf intentionally desired for the Buckeye as "chasing". I find that you either have it or you don't.....many people who claim to be breeders often make excuses as to why they can't achieve a nice even velvet red that can be associated with a shade of darker mahogany. Far to many propagators settle with a much lighter shade and often battle with undercolor while going to great lengths to justify their misaligned efforts. I've yet to see a bird I've hatched this year lack undercolor which was a trait that Nettie Metcalf greatly desired and admired in her fowl. Nettie Metcalf spoke openly about her views of some black in her females and felt it was necessary to produce the dark red color in her males.

I'f rather see a little black vs a splotchy uneven buff/red that is seen in many Buckeye flocks today. The lighter colors will ultimately result in white feather tips and even white feathers in the primaries. This is completely unacceptable!

Breeders that value Nettie's vision of the breed don't "chase" darker birds...we breed them to ensure the intent of the Buckeye's creator is not lost to people that are unable to continue her vision.

Many of the great judges here in Ohio and in the east understand the issues that face this great breed and are making sure Nettie's vision stays with the breed.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I've been looking at my chick photos from last year. Is this head stripe an indication of cross breeding in the past? Or are Buckeye chicks normally marked with stripes now and then?

 

[sumi]

Quote:
I've read quite a lot about the correct colour of the Buckeye and how breeders interpret the standard description. I think Blueface mentioned here before that Nettie was much challenged and at the mercy of the RIR breeders of the day, who were competing with another "red" breed that would appeal to poultry owners and breeders. They did influence the Standard description for the Buckeye somewhat, which unfortunately left some room for confusion and misinterpretation.

She placed great emphasis on the colour she desired in the Buckeye and described it beautifully, if I'm allowed to quote, her exact words from her writings were:

The 2010 standard suggests that the general surface color be an even shade of rich mahogany-bay in all sections, with the exception of the unexposed primaries and secondaries and the main tail feathers may contain black. When digging a bit deeper and reading through the articles that Mrs. Nettie Metcalf published. The color was described in better detail; “--for my hens had that brown red surface like a ripe buckeye and the males were mostly a maroon red.” Mrs. Metcalf goes onto write; “The R.I. Reds are a sorrel and the Buckeyes a dark bay red, comparing them as one would cattle or horses of the same shades…..The Buckeye, as bred ideally, is as much darker in shade ..” (Pacific Fancier, 1909).

Later in 1917, Mrs. Metcalf wrote; “As for color—well, my own are so dark a red that at a little distance in the shadow they look fairly black, but when the sun strikes them and brings out that rich, garnish luster”. She goes on to write; “…with the very darkest of red plumage, hens containing some black not being objectionable to me as long as the males kept that dark red shade I admire.”

This, in my opinion, should remove some of the confusion around what the breed should look like and the shade of red that breeders should aim for and maintain.

I really hope that in time all breeders of this wonderful breed would make an effort honour Nettie's vision for her "mongrels", that she put so much time, effort and love into crafting exactly the way she wanted them to be. In spite of the challenges and difficulties she faced at the time… I've heard someone ask why should Nettie's description and wishes for the Buckeye's colour carry any weight? Well…. she created the breed. I think that in itself should be adequate…

 

[ThatFarmerChick]

I don't consider breeding the color that Nettie Metcalf intentionally desired for the Buckeye as "chasing". I find that you either have it or you don't.....many people who claim to be breeders often make excuses as to why they can't achieve a nice even velvet red that can be associated with a shade of darker mahogany. Far to many propagators settle with a much lighter shade and often battle with undercolor while going to great lengths to justify their misaligned efforts. I've yet to see a bird I've hatched this year lack undercolor which was a trait that Nettie Metcalf greatly desired and admired in her fowl. Nettie Metcalf spoke openly about her views of some black in her females and felt it was necessary to produce the dark red color in her males.

I'f rather see a little black vs a splotchy uneven buff/red that is seen in many Buckeye flocks today. The lighter colors will ultimately result in white feather tips and even white feathers in the primaries. This is completely unacceptable!

Breeders that value Nettie's vision of the breed don't "chase" darker birds...we breed them to ensure the intent of the Buckeye's creator is not lost to people that are unable to continue her vision.

Many of the great judges here in Ohio and in the east understand the issues that face this great breed and are making sure Nettie's vision stays with the breed.

I absolutely love that Mahogany red. That is one of the attributes that helped us choose this breed as the red bird for our mixed, colorful flock.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Sometimes I think that Nettie's Buckeyes may have been even darker than today's Buckeyes. Too bad they didn't have colour photography back then!

 

[sumi]

Sometimes I think that Nettie's Buckeyes may have been even darker than today's Buckeyes. Too bad they didn't have colour photography back then!

I often wish, when I read excerpts of the old publications and research breeds' origins, that we could go back in time and see what the breeds all looked like back then, talk to the breeders and hear how they went about breeding their birds… I'm so glad there are photos around for us to see today, but yeah, colour would've been wonderful!

 

[Blueface]

Sometimes I think that Nettie's Buckeyes may have been even darker than today's Buckeyes. Too bad they didn't have colour photography back then!

Nettie described her color preferences through referencing horse and cattle coat colors...i beleive my website outlines her written description as well as providing pictures that relate to the description referenced.

I'm quite positive that the intended color was indeed darker than many of the lines you see today....the lack of dedicated breeders coupled with propagators that lack the ability to interpret Nettie's descriptions properly or don't even care because they want to make a fast buck using the "endangered" jargon have greatly hurt the breed....the ALBC and their group of drones have not done the Buckeye justice.

 

[Blueface]

I've been looking at my chick photos from last year. Is this head stripe an indication of cross breeding in the past? Or are Buckeye chicks normally marked with stripes now and then?

Not nessecarily....but unless you have followed the strain and breeders history ....you can never really tell. I think I got one or two very lightly striped chicks this year. I wouldn't really worry about it.

Here was one of mine.