The Dorking Breeders thread

[capayvalleychick]

Here's a picture of my Murray hatchery line Silver-Grey chicks I took on our way in the house earlier...hatched them myself

I feel really bad to have to tell you this... all 4 of those with black feathers on their chests are cockerels. Sometimes male SGD chicks will have a dark triangle on their head like a female. It's not a 100% way to sex them. The black feathers on the breast tell you they are male. Salmon (reddish brown) breast feathers are pullets (female).

Here's a picture of the California dorkings. I was sent different color strains. What do you all think?

The very light one on the end is one of her made up colors. Unless White chicks look like that? Not sure on the next one, maybe Red? Third one may be Red. The lightish marked ones may be male SG or mixed color. The two with the dark triangles look colored like your McMurray SGs, don't they?
Even if they feather out looking like a standard color, if they are mixed with another variety, they may not breed true.

You may possibly have a SG trio if those two are SG pullets, you could try breeding them to the McM male and see what you get. I hope that you get some pullets from the McM batch.

Where are you located?

To answer your question about raising the poult, some people do raise turkeys with chickens. I did. Chickens sometimes carry Blackhead, which will kill turkeys. So that's a risk. And turkeys need higher protein food than chickens. You might ask about this on a turkey thread.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Cute, yes, but not like any Dorking I've ever seen. Almost looks like a poult. Even his wing shape looks odd.

I agree. It looks like a little Bourbon Red poult. I have raised one clutch of heritage turkeys, and they were raised together with chicks. The poults aren't born with all the instincts that the chicks have regarding eating, drinking, scratching, and dustbathing, so someone has to show them. Chicks act as great tutors, and the survival rates among poults are higher when brooded with chicks. The poult will be very dependent on the chicks for a few months, then will be as independent as them. Young turkeys really like to fly, and their wings grow faster than their bodies, so they get tremendous lift with those long wings and lightweight bodies for a while.

When I brooded them together, I just mixed the chick starter and the game bird starter together for ~24% protein the first 8 weeks, then changed the ratios to get 20% thereafter. It worked out great. It is very important to decrease the protein ratio after 8 weeks, as protein that high for either species can cause growth problems if continued too long.

Blackhead can be carried harmlessly by chickens, but it kills turkeys. It is very regional, so you can call your county extension office to see if it exists in your area. If not, there's no problem raising them together.

If the turkey is a hen, the young roosters will torture her always trying to breed, and she won't understand. Turkey toms don't run down their hens and grab them by the back of the neck while breeding. The toms wait for the hens to squat down in front of them, and balance on top of the hen by putting their long wings down on both sides of her during breeding. The turkey hens can be kept with roosters, but ideally no more than one. If she's not outnumbered she will probably be able to keep the boy at bay. If the poult turns out to be a tom, there shouldn't be a problem with the roosters. A rare tom may try to breed with a chicken hen, but that's not common, or safe. If a BR tom is allowed to get to full size, he has the potential to eventually weigh up to 33 lbs. My two toms are one year old and weigh 25 lbs and 29.5 lbs, so they would crush a chicken hen.

Other than that, heritage turkeys and Dorkings are very similar in their management. They both love to free range and explore, they both do best with more room than the average chicken needs, and they both love to fly and roost in trees if given the opportunity, but can easily be trained to return to their coop in the evening if free ranged. If you do plan on slaughtering the turkey, heritage turkeys are best slaughtered at around 9 months old, but will retain their meat tenderness for more than 2 years. Bourbon Red turkeys are considered the best tasting of the heritage turkeys, so it could easily be sold for a high price per pound if you didn't want it for your own table, or you don't sell it as a started poult. But be aware, turkeys are extremely personable, and it's very easy for them to turn into pets, especially when there's only one. Turkeys should never be kept alone, without the company of other poultry, but they can be kept with different species as flockmates.

I can't believe I didn't think turkey when you said there was a fuzzy little knob on the top of the head. The duck bill thing totally threw me off. Oh, how a picture is worth a thousand words. Was this poult a "free extra," or were you shorted a Dorking on your order?

 

[MacCana]

I feel really bad to have to tell you this... all 4 of those with black feathers on their chests are cockerels. Sometimes male SGD chicks will have a dark triangle on their head like a female. It's not a 100% way to sex them. The black feathers on the breast tell you they are male. Salmon (reddish brown) breast feathers are pullets (female).

The very light one on the end is one of her made up colors. Unless White chicks look like that? Not sure on the next one, maybe Red? Third one may be Red. The lightish marked ones may be male SG or mixed color. The two with the dark triangles look colored like your McMurray SGs, don't they?
Even if they feather out looking like a standard color, if they are mixed with another variety, they may not breed true.

You may possibly have a SG trio if those two are SG pullets, you could try breeding them to the McM male and see what you get. I hope that you get some pullets from the McM batch.

Where are you located?

To answer your question about raising the poult, some people do raise turkeys with chickens. I did. Chickens sometimes carry Blackhead, which will kill turkeys. So that's a risk. And turkeys need higher protein food than chickens. You might ask about this on a turkey thread.

After inspecting in the daylight today, one of the chicks not pictured is a pullet. You're right, those 4 are all male. My one other MM hatchery chick didn't want to come out to see me this morning so I haven't gotten a good look at it's breast feathers yet. I just transferred them outside yesterday, so that's been the first time since their chest feathers have started coming in that I've had them outside in natural light & not under a red brooder light. Just my luck! lol. She emailed me back today & after looking at the pictures, she said that it looks like I have " fawn, dun, red or tawny, red or tawny, and the rest salmon. " but said she wasn't 100% sure bc of their age & to send pics as they started feathering out. But I agree with you, it does look like I possible have 2-3 Silver greys there.
What's the general consensus in the breeding community on mixing color lines of Dorking? Do 2 of any of those supposed colors mix into another recognized color, that'd be worth something? Or would it just be making "mutts"? I ordered "one of every color" before I did my research on breeding & now I'm afraid I messed up getting multiple colors instead of just one.
Also, I'm located in southern Tennessee. I read that blackhead can be an issue in eastern regions....but with proper worming & if everything is kept dry, it can work? Housing the 2 together I mean.

I agree. It looks like a little Bourbon Red poult. I have raised one clutch of heritage turkeys, and they were raised together with chicks. The poults aren't born with all the instincts that the chicks have regarding eating, drinking, scratching, and dustbathing, so someone has to show them. Chicks act as great tutors, and the survival rates among poults are higher when brooded with chicks. The poult will be very dependent on the chicks for a few months, then will be as independent as them. Young turkeys really like to fly, and their wings grow faster than their bodies, so they get tremendous lift with those long wings and lightweight bodies for a while.

When I brooded them together, I just mixed the chick starter and the game bird starter together for ~24% protein the first 8 weeks, then changed the ratios to get 20% thereafter. It worked out great. It is very important to decrease the protein ratio after 8 weeks, as protein that high for either species can cause growth problems if continued too long.

Blackhead can be carried harmlessly by chickens, but it kills turkeys. It is very regional, so you can call your county extension office to see if it exists in your area. If not, there's no problem raising them together.

If the turkey is a hen, the young roosters will torture her always trying to breed, and she won't understand. Turkey toms don't run down their hens and grab them by the back of the neck while breeding. The toms wait for the hens to squat down in front of them, and balance on top of the hen by putting their long wings down on both sides of her during breeding. The turkey hens can be kept with roosters, but ideally no more than one. If she's not outnumbered she will probably be able to keep the boy at bay. If the poult turns out to be a tom, there shouldn't be a problem with the roosters. A rare tom may try to breed with a chicken hen, but that's not common, or safe. If a BR tom is allowed to get to full size, he has the potential to eventually weigh up to 33 lbs. My two toms are one year old and weigh 25 lbs and 29.5 lbs, so they would crush a chicken hen.

Other than that, heritage turkeys and Dorkings are very similar in their management. They both love to free range and explore, they both do best with more room than the average chicken needs, and they both love to fly and roost in trees if given the opportunity, but can easily be trained to return to their coop in the evening if free ranged. If you do plan on slaughtering the turkey, heritage turkeys are best slaughtered at around 9 months old, but will retain their meat tenderness for more than 2 years. Bourbon Red turkeys are considered the best tasting of the heritage turkeys, so it could easily be sold for a high price per pound if you didn't want it for your own table, or you don't sell it as a started poult. But be aware, turkeys are extremely personable, and it's very easy for them to turn into pets, especially when there's only one. Turkeys should never be kept alone, without the company of other poultry, but they can be kept with different species as flockmates.

I can't believe I didn't think turkey when you said there was a fuzzy little knob on the top of the head. The duck bill thing totally threw me off. Oh, how a picture is worth a thousand words. Was this poult a "free extra," or were you shorted a Dorking on your order?

And you are absolutely correct on it being a red bourbon. The seller confirmed it. Said she specifically remembered setting aside the chicks for me to have them delivered, and that the turkey must've jumped in with them or stowed away somehow. Lucky me I guess! I actually only was able to afford 5 at the time, but she sent me 8 + 1 sneaky turkey lol (who will definately be a pet.). Thanks for the info too. Do you think with regular worming & keeping the coop dry will help prevent any blackhead from even being in my chickens? I plan to free range during the day, as I'm home 75% of the time.


You gals have been a real help. Thank you!

 

[LindaB220]

Here's a picture of the California dorkings. I was sent different color strains. What do you all think?

So stinking cute. Can't stand it. Want some!!!!!

 

[Sydney Acres]

After inspecting in the daylight today, one of the chicks not pictured is a pullet. You're right, those 4 are all male. My one other MM hatchery chick didn't want to come out to see me this morning so I haven't gotten a good look at it's breast feathers yet. I just transferred them outside yesterday, so that's been the first time since their chest feathers have started coming in that I've had them outside in natural light & not under a red brooder light. Just my luck! lol. She emailed me back today & after looking at the pictures, she said that it looks like I have " fawn, dun, red or tawny, red or tawny, and the rest salmon. " but said she wasn't 100% sure bc of their age & to send pics as they started feathering out. But I agree with you, it does look like I possible have 2-3 Silver greys there.
What's the general consensus in the breeding community on mixing color lines of Dorking? Do 2 of any of those supposed colors mix into another recognized color, that'd be worth something? Or would it just be making "mutts"? I ordered "one of every color" before I did my research on breeding & now I'm afraid I messed up getting multiple colors instead of just one.
Also, I'm located in southern Tennessee. I read that blackhead can be an issue in eastern regions....but with proper worming & if everything is kept dry, it can work? Housing the 2 together I mean.





And you are absolutely correct on it being a red bourbon. The seller confirmed it. Said she specifically remembered setting aside the chicks for me to have them delivered, and that the turkey must've jumped in with them or stowed away somehow. Lucky me I guess! I actually only was able to afford 5 at the time, but she sent me 8 + 1 sneaky turkey lol (who will definately be a pet.). Thanks for the info too. Do you think with regular worming & keeping the coop dry will help prevent any blackhead from even being in my chickens? I plan to free range during the day, as I'm home 75% of the time.


You gals have been a real help. Thank you!

The general consensus in the Dorking community is that the breed, regardless of color, is in such disrepair that color is a low priority compared to other aspects of the bird. Different breeders have different opinions, but most people fall into one of two categories. Some people work with only one color, and try to perfect that color along with the the other unique features of the breed simultaneously. Other people get birds of any color, breed strictly for one feature at a time, then once they're happy with that feature they move on to the next, leaving color until last. Most people agree that the priorities in preserving/improving the breed are frame shape (conformation), size, feet features, head features, then color, in that order. Many people also select for other things that are not in the SOP, such as temperament, meat flavor, feed conversion, growth rate, broodiness, etc. You also have to decide if you want to only breed American SOP colors, or British Poultry Standards colors, or non-standard colors. The only colors in the American SOP are Silver Grey, Red, White, and Colored.

I can see a nearby poult jumping into a packing box full of chicks. And it was free!

I don't know if keeping the coop dry will be enough to control blackhead, especially since they will also be freeranging. Obviously the chicks that came from FlipFlop Ranch don't carry Blackhead, or they couldn't be raised together with turkeys. But chicks from other sources could potentially contaminate the ground, which I've been told can stay contaminated for several years. It is best to contact you local county ag extension office to get your local details and prevention/control options. If your county extension office can't help you, the University of Tennessee should have a poultry department that you can contact for information about the local risks. Here is a link to some basic information about Blackhead.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Well, I finally decided to take the plunge and start breeding. I bought an incubator, started collecting eggs from my four best hens, and rotated older eggs out of the storage area until I had 2 hens go broody. I've got all the eggs from one hen under one broody, and the eggs from a second hen under a second broody, and will hatch out the eggs from the other two hens in pedigree baskets in the incubator. All the chicks will be banded to identify which hen is the parent (all are from the same rooster), then the incubator chicks will be grafted onto the broodies, assuming a coordinated hatch. So far I'm seeing lots of veining and embryos, so I know the rooster is fertile. Hope they hatch, hope they hatch, hope they hatch.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Yeah, I realized that as soon as capavalleychick said it looked like a poult. Which, I didn't even know was the term for baby turkeys :/ .....and I'm supposed to be southern lol. The rest don't look like that one though. I *know* they're chicks. I plan on posting their picture as soon as I can get my little one to sleep. She always wants to kiss and hug on them, but they've traveled a long way in the past 2 days, so I don't want her handling them yet. Here's a picture of my Murray hatchery line Silver-Grey chicks I took on our way in the house earlier...hatched them myself

Here's a picture of the California dorkings. I was sent different color strains. What do you all think?

The general consensus in the Dorking community is that the breed, regardless of color, is in such disrepair that color is a low priority compared to other aspects of the bird. Different breeders have different opinions, but most people fall into one of two categories. Some people work with only one color, and try to perfect that color along with the the other unique features of the breed simultaneously. Other people get birds of any color, breed strictly for one feature at a time, then once they're happy with that feature they move on to the next, leaving color until last.

Well, on a thread that is specifically for breeding to the Standard, I would say that there's a 99.9% chance that culling these "California" chicks (now or later) is the best bet. They will make a mess out of the MMCM chicks that will take an untold number of seasons to fix.

There is the reality that the overwhelming majority of on-line folks in the "Dorking Community" are very new to chickens and are making up their rules as they go. Indeed, I can only think of one on-line Dorking breeder, a California-based breeder of SGs, who regularly shows and consults with judges and established breeders. Without this bulwark of support most people are just treading water and making messes. At first that might sound harsh, as if I were discounting peoples hopes and dreams, but actually it is the exact opposite. There are rules to this game, and the rare breeds need us to follow these rules if they are going to attain to and persist genetically in form and feather that is recognizably standard-bred Dorking. Having a field day with indiscriminate Duckwing patterns, without the guidance of a recognized APA/ABA breeder to help to steer selection in an appropriate manner, is a recipe for failure.

Form and feather should be happening at that same time. If you work for twenty years to fixe size and type to only then realize that its going to take another 20 to fix feather, the chances of long-term success for your breeding program--and the subsequent health of the breed--will be reduced substantially.

How ever this person is in CA shipping these chicks--he or she is in no shape or form a "breeder"--period. Indeed, there are very few true "breeders" of Dorkings in the country at all. Most would-be breeders are still beginners and are still deciding whether or not they're going to follow the rules of the game. At this point, it's looking like a bit of a toss up.

The mastery of most things is not about deciding what one thinks about something, but what one is willing to obey. Obedience is the beginning of all mastery. I know of only two people whose SGs I would want to try and only one person whose Reds I would try, and it is because they make concerted efforts to obey the rules and do things properly.

Fortunately, some long-established breeders have recently picked up the Whites; hopefully this will stimulate further interest and get these birds into a growing number of hands.

 

[dsstroyer]

I love this thread, keep it going.

 

[dsstroyer]

YHF, in your first post second picture from the top, how old are those dressed birds? They look fabulous!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

6-7 months, between 3.5 and 4.5/lbs. dressed.