The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[speckledhen]

Roosters sure are a pain in the spring aren't they.

Well, they can be a pain any time of year. I love my boys, always have been enamored with my roosters, most of them being so sweet, but some days, I remember the good old days when we had a bunch of hens, then the one rooster later on, and no actual breeding groups, just a mixed up, crazy, and fun flock. If I let Apollo go, at least for awhile, Hector would have enough hens, one less group to have to let out for their time in the pen, one freed-up pen for whatever we needed it for at any time, etc.

Atlas and Apollo were both sweet when we cleaned them up. Gosh, that Atlas is a treasure, he really is. Apollo made a little mistake this morning. DH went in with the remainder of a bowl of eggs and grits and he wanted Athena to get it because it was not enough for all three. She was acting like she didn't feel all that spry for a couple days, hence the favoritism. He ran his hand down Apollo's back and told him no and Apollo bit him. Then he did it again. Then he flared up. So, he was chastised (DH said he grabbed him and flipped him upside down for a couple seconds, supporting his body). So, not sure what his issue was this morning. Maybe it's that spring fever stuff. He's never done that before and when we went in to clean him up, he didn't offer to bite either one of us, so he just didn't like being pushed away from the goodies I suppose. I walked around him all the rest of the day and he did nothing unusual. So did DH and Apollo acted normal. Atlas would never dream of doing that and it would be unusual for a male of this line to start up crud like that. However, aberrations can happen, I realize. Hector's nipped, too, even after he calmed down. He still likes to dance toward me occasionally. Spring is on the way, right Lisa??

 

[robhuncor]

ETA: I'm still considering going to one cockerel, choosing between Hector and Apollo. Since I have six Apollo babies that will be hatching over the next week or so and certainly, there will be a cockerel in that bunch that I could keep if I was of a mind to do so, I am leaning toward keeping Hector, mainly because of his size, secondarily because he's unrelated to most of the hens he will be over. They are Stukel-based, therefore may improve his tail issue. Or that's the theory. It could go the other way, but since the mothers influence the sons more than their daughters, I'd hope they'd improve the tail on the males that come out of Hector. Keeping only the one right now would also simplify my life and make DH happy in the process, I bet. He's fond of Apollo, but he's also quite fond of Hector.

I realize I've been all over the map with this, for different reasons, but until I am settled in my mind, I have to consider all the angles.

Just my thoughts...coming from the dog and horse breeding world as well as poultry....
A glaring fault, like a bad tail, can end up making more bad tails. You try not to perpetuate those kind of faults. Going to the other extreme, like breeding Hector to a hen with an upright tail, is not going to even it out but is likely going to get you a lot of chicks with upright tails and too low tails. Breeding to a correct tail hen will probably get you more of a chance at correct tails but still some bad ones. Unless your related hens ( with Apollo) are showing faults or health weaknesses, there is nothing wrong with "close" breeding. It is actually good because you have narrowed the gene pool and you know what the good qualities are because they are obviously apparent and show up consistently. Still, it is good to get an infusion of "fresh blood" now and then, but you want to use the best, most correct individual you can find because there are a lot of unknown genes hidden in even the best unrelated individual and the traits they carry could come out and surprise you.

This is not meant to be a breeding lecture - you certainly know what you are doing and have been doing it for a long time! It's just some of my thoughts on my own breeding philosophy. Sometimes it helps to have an objective opinion to think about when you are torn about what to do.

 

[speckledhen]

Just my thoughts...coming from the dog and horse breeding world as well as poultry....
A glaring fault, like a bad tail, can end up making more bad tails. You try not to perpetuate those kind of faults. Going to the other extreme, like breeding Hector to a hen with an upright tail, is not going to even it out but is likely going to get you a lot of chicks with upright tails and too low tails. Breeding to a correct tail hen will probably get you more of a chance at correct tails but still some bad ones. Unless your related hens ( with Apollo) are showing faults or health weaknesses, there is nothing wrong with "close" breeding. It is actually good because you have narrowed the gene pool and you know what the good qualities are because they are obviously apparent and show up consistently. Still, it is good to get an infusion of "fresh blood" now and then, but you want to use the best, most correct individual you can find because there are a lot of unknown genes hidden in even the best unrelated individual and the traits they carry could come out and surprise you.

This is not meant to be a breeding lecture - you certainly know what you are doing and have been doing it for a long time! It's just some of my thoughts on my own breeding philosophy. Sometimes it helps to have an objective opinion to think about when you are torn about what to do.

I know what you're saying, Robin (I said Lisa, what the heck, sorry!) and you are right that I'd get a lot more low tails and a few normal ones, probably. I've been line breeding these that started with the Stukel hens for awhile, pretty much. I'm just so tired of hassles right now and wish I could simplify things. If Apollo's little incident from this morning turns into something else, no matter if he's drop dead gorgeous (and he really is), he can't stay. I'm going to watch for that, but I think he just had a stupid moment. He's always been a good boy. When I went in and picked him up afterward, he was shaking like a leaf, as if he realized he'd done something really dumb.

I just go back and forth and back and forth, as I said, I'm all over the map here. I'm afraid what would happen to Hector if I didn't keep him, but as for Apollo, he ought to turn out some beautiful kids, maybe a son as good or better than he is, so if he left, the girls could stay with Hector for the time being-all those crotchety women thrown together would give poor Atlas a heart attack, LOL. I do go back and forth on it, I admit it.

I know about those surprise traits; for example, the dwarf gene that popped up in my Delaware line. I do not believe that Atlas has it-no chicks have ever shown any sign of it at all. Deacon, however, did inherit it from Isaac and so did another hen, can't remember whose daughter was Sammie Jo, maybe Rex's? or was she Isaac's? Time messes me up. I did not know that until I hatched two chicks of theirs and both were dwarfs. The breeder had never seen a dwarf but just the right combination of parents and BAM! Shocker results.

I guess I'm asking myself why I'm even caring about breeding at all right now. Maybe I'm just tired. It seems I've had so many issues lately that it's worn me down a little and I just want SIMPLE!

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I have a horrible time deciding on which roosters to keep. I don't really factor in offspring because I don't usually hatch my own eggs. I am always afraid I will decide one can go, than the next week I lose a different rooster, and now I'm down two roosters.

You definitely have been having a rough stretch lately.

 

[GingersHuman]

I understand wanting to pare down the roosters. I rehomed one of mine recently. Now I have 1 LF and 1 bantam. Plenty.

 

[holm25]

Cyn best of luck choosing who to keep.

A dear BYC friend that I got my Buckeyes from brought in a rooster from a seperate line and destroyed her line. Now she has white coming in, excess black, low tails and aggression towards each other. All things she had never had before until she used that rooster. Her line is getting steadied out again now but her birds aren't near as nice as before she brought that bird in. Although I still think her birds look amazing!

I don't blame you at all for wanting to get rid of a rooster. They cause trouble and heart ache at times. I still question myself for keeping 4... At the beginning of winter I had 7 but decided I had to get rid of a few before breeding season... Now I have my main Buff rooster, the two Buckeye roosters(my favorites) and HeiHei my Bantam Cochin rooster.

 

[speckledhen]

I have a horrible time deciding on which roosters to keep. I don't really factor in offspring because I don't usually hatch my own eggs. I am always afraid I will decide one can go, than the next week I lose a different rooster, and now I'm down two roosters.

You definitely have been having a rough stretch lately.

And then I think, what if something happens to Atlas, Hector could shepherd those girls. I dunno.

I understand wanting to pare down the roosters. I rehomed one of mine recently. Now I have 1 LF and 1 bantam. Plenty.

Yup, it's nice having only a couple.

Cyn best of luck choosing who to keep.

A dear BYC friend that I got my Buckeyes from brought in a rooster from a seperate line and destroyed her line. Now she has white coming in, excess black, low tails and aggression towards each other. All things she had never had before until she used that rooster. Her line is getting steadied out again now but her birds aren't near as nice as before she brought that bird in. Although I still think her birds look amazing!

I don't blame you at all for wanting to get rid of a rooster. They cause trouble and heart ache at times. I still question myself for keeping 4... At the beginning of winter I had 7 but decided I had to get rid of a few before breeding season... Now I have my main Buff rooster, the two Buckeye roosters(my favorites) and HeiHei my Bantam Cochin rooster.

Thank you, Isaiah. You're a smart guy. I appreciate all your input.

 

[1muttsfan]

Cyn, I know how much you love your boys. I feel so fortunate that (at least so far) my 2 boys are coexisting without rancor.

 

[speckledhen]

Cyn, I know how much you love your boys. I feel so fortunate that (at least so far) my 2 boys are coexisting without rancor.

Ever since Ladyhawk had an awesome rooster team of her big blue Orp, Lancelot, and Suede and Meg's son, Hector, I've wanted a rooster team. It's never worked out and I've tried several ways to make it happen. Remember, I put Indy, Ira and Rex into the pen with Isaac, sort of "sneaked in" his young sons on him and he was fine with them....until Indy was outgrowing his own sire at less than 25 weeks old. He was HUGE and Isaac obviously felt threatened by him and he was suddenly dead in the pen; the location and the position of his body told the story of what happened. Rex was okay in there for a good bit longer, but then Isaac slept on the floor that super cold night and got frostbitten toes because of his bad circulation. His necessary absence emboldened Rex and then, I could never have them together again. And you know what happened with Atlas and Apollo. Again, hopes dashed.

I thought maybe Apollo and Hector, but Hector was so dominant even as a very young guy, that Apollo was always afraid of him and now, Apollo would turn to fight so again, no rooster team. Sigh. It's not to be. The Belgian D'Anvers live together but even they fight. That is not the same anyway. My rooster team was for predator protection/resistance while on range and those would just be a chicken nugget snack anyway, no matter how many there were together.



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[1muttsfan]

For those who love all birds, the Great Backyard Bird Count is going on, participation is free and fun - check it out here

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/Page.aspx?pid=1478