The Front Porch Swing

[LeslieDJoyce]

Oh fun suspense! What kind are you getting?

Bee would you get a feed with 15% protein or 22%? My flock ranges from 19 weeks up to a year with 2 roosters. I just didn't want to have to feed different kinds for chicks vs layers. I have oyster shell out on the side and no real problems with thin shells. I am hoping for broody hens this year too and I know that chicks need more protein. What are your suggestions?

I'd go with the 15%...it's going to be cheaper and it will be more than adequate for all ages and sexes. I'm not a fan of upping proteins as I've never really seen much difference between the two in regards to flock health and production levels, so why pay for the difference?

This reminds me ... I need to write to the heritage breed conservancy group and ask them why their website recommends feeding heritage breed chickens 28% protein feeds even as adults,

, and what "kind" of protein they mean by that.

When I was shopping for feed of that high protein percentage (for poults) in our area it wasn't much fun, and I don't want to have to go through that again if there isn't any scientific reason to justify it.

Since I saw that advice I've been doing tons of research into protein percentages and poultry performance and health and the best I can come up with is that the 15%-17% feeds are the most efficient for mature layers except during molt, but that also birds can do better with more protein, but specifically do better with some animal proteins in the mix.

Then there are always vague warnings about too much protein potentially causing health problems, but reports vary greatly on what "too much" is.

It only occurred to me the other day I should just write to the group and ask them directly.

I have both chickens and ducks, and usually have birds or multiple ages & both genders, and therefore we feed an all-purpose poultry feed that starts at 19%, and then dilute it with grains, oyster shell on the side. We prefer this base food & the complementary scratch mix for lots of reasons, one of which is we can get it at a local feed mill instead of the farm store where the help in the feed department isn't terribly helpful.

There is a handy little calculator over at the Metzer Farms website that will tell you how much of two different feeds to mix together to get to your target protein percentage ... http://www.metzerfarms.com/FeedConversion.cfm

People with excellent forage don't have to sweat it as much because the birds will self-regulate the macronutrient balance in their diet ...

And of course they say fermenting the feed makes it more nutritious ...

This is one of those things that can become overcomplicated pretty quickly, so I've been working on streamlining the feeding process from start to finish. And improving the foraging options for the birds.

 

[TexasLisa]

Thank you all for the warm welcome! Seems I spend all my time on this site, can't wait to get my chicks! 6 more days.

You think it is bad now....wait till the babies arrive. You will be posting pictures (please post pictures), telling us baby stories, etc.

http://www.wimp.com/kidmath/

This is priceless! I could see one of my kids doing this!

Next time, post a warning not to be eating or drinking. That was great!!

My youngest would have done this...for sure. When he was around 3 yrs old I worked at the Red Cross, taking blood all day. People wold jokingly call me a vampire and my older kids had caught onto that, joking about it a little. We weren't thinking that little kids take things literally. One day I when I came home I had just taken a drink of water from a water bottle when I got out of the van and my boys came out to greet me and kiss me. One of them said, "Ewww! Mom! Your mouth is wet! What was that???" and my little boy piped up, "Duh! She just got home, what do you think is on her mouth???" in this very grown up manner. We all started laughing and I could barely get it out to ask, "Uh...Jonny? What do you mean?" and he said, "Well! Everyone says you are a vampire....." and the poor kid was serious!!! It's become a family story..still gets a laugh.

Uh huh, that explains why you are up at all hours of the night!! No mirrors in the house either, right?

Lisa

 

[bruceh]

bee the vampire. . oh my let get a wooden stake, holy water, a bible and a cross. if i see bee hanging at my house my blood type is O+ . have a drink on me.

 

[lindz8504]

You guys are a hoot!

I am cooking my first chicken! We are having dumplings tonight. Or at least that's the plan. I am attempting them for the first time. Granny is on speed dial!

 

[Beekissed]

This is one of those things that can become overcomplicated pretty quickly, so I've been working on streamlining the feeding process from start to finish. And improving the foraging options for the birds.

I agree! There is such conflicting information out there that it's frightening. I've also seen a trend in the past few years for newbies to be continually increasing dietary proteins in their birds like it's some kind of competition to see who can give the most high pro supplement to the feed....like maybe they feel protein = quality care? Or maybe that will erase all poor flock management methods?

I'm not quite sure but I do know enough about basic anatomy and physiology to know that high proteins diets as a daily ration for extended periods of time better be going inside a high performance animal that can utilize all that extra protein...like a race/work horse that is actively racing/training/working, a hunting/working/racing dog that is actively worked every day, a dairy cow that is producing high milk yields and is also in calf, etc. where their physical needs demand a high performance fuel to get the job done.

But a chicken in a backyard laying 5 eggs a week? I'd hardly call that high performance needs. I've spoken to a few people this year that was feeding all game bird feeds to their chickens so they could get away from GMOs and also feed high pro feeds...and those people started seeing the very same symptoms in their birds. Ascites, shortness of breath upon exertion, failure to thrive and laying cessation~then death. As soon as they returned to a more balanced ration meant for layer chickens, the health issue went away.

Purely anecdotal, but since I've never had any issues like that or any other health issues in my flocks for the past 37 yrs I'm thinking it has a lot to do with just feeding simple, plain chicken rations as a supplement to free range forage.

High protein diets for humans can cause increased depletion of calcium as the protein consumption causes the body to process more calcium...so if increasing proteins, one must also increase calcium intake, increased strain on kidneys, increased risk of cancer, increased risk of organ failure, and nutritional deficiencies in other areas. Our bodies are not so different than chickens so it could very well affect chickens in much the same way. Unfortunately, I've not found any studies about the effects of high protein diets on a backyard flock, so I just have to trust my nursing instincts on that one.

If you can maintain good lay and health on a chicken with 15-16% protein levels, why would anyone want to mess with that?

Uh huh, that explains why you are up at all hours of the night!! No mirrors in the house either, right?

Lisa

The no mirrors rule is simply because I'm FAT.

Actually, my mother's nickname amongst my children is The Ol' Bat. She's one too!

bee the vampire. . oh my let get a wooden stake, holy water, a bible and a cross. if i see bee hanging at my house my blood type is O+ . have a drink on me.

Bruce!!!

Well, I NEVAH! <insert southern belle accent here>

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I agree!  There is such conflicting information out there that it's frightening.  I've also seen a trend in the past few years for newbies to be continually increasing dietary proteins in their birds like it's some kind of competition to see who can give the most high pro supplement to the feed....like maybe they feel protein = quality care?   Or maybe that will erase all poor flock management methods? 

I'm not quite sure but I do know enough about basic anatomy and physiology to know that high proteins diets as a daily ration for extended periods of time better be going inside a high performance animal that can utilize all that extra protein...like a race/work horse that is actively racing/training/working, a hunting/working/racing dog that is actively worked every day, a dairy cow that is producing high milk yields and is also in calf, etc. where their physical needs demand a high performance fuel to get the job done. 

But a chicken in a backyard laying 5 eggs a week?  I'd hardly call that high performance needs.  I've spoken to a few people this year that was feeding all game bird feeds to their chickens so they could get away from GMOs and also feed high pro feeds...and those people started seeing the very same symptoms in their birds.  Ascites, shortness of breath upon exertion, failure to thrive and laying cessation~then death.  As soon as they returned to a more balanced ration meant for layer chickens, the health issue went away. 

Purely anecdotal, but since I've never had any issues like that or any other health issues in my flocks for the past 37 yrs I'm thinking it has a lot to do with just feeding simple, plain chicken rations as a supplement to free range forage. 

High protein diets for humans can cause increased depletion of calcium as the protein consumption causes the body to process more calcium...so if increasing proteins, one must also increase calcium intake, increased strain on kidneys, increased risk of cancer, increased risk of organ failure, and nutritional deficiencies in other areas. Our bodies are not so different than chickens so it could very well affect chickens in much the same way.  Unfortunately, I've not found any studies about the effects of high protein diets on a backyard flock, so I just have to trust my nursing instincts on that one. 

If you can maintain good lay and health on a chicken with 15-16% protein levels, why would anyone want to mess with that? 

I agree with that ... a balanced ration is a beautiful thing. And yet a lot of people mistrust the industrial foods. For some valid reasons to be sure. But are those reasons worth the risk of the birds not getting proper nutrition? Not for me.

I, personally, am noticing the bulk of laying hen nutrition info is based on economy, with an understanding the birds will be "done" in at most two years, so there is no need to feed the bird for maximum health -- meat birds are processed at 5-8 weeks, laying hens are culled before chronic deficiencies manifest as production (health) problems.

The info on "breeders" for the industrial market shows slightly different formulas for feeds ... closer to the all-flock foods, which are higher protein percentages and more vitamins and minerals. But it is important to consider how much quality ranging our birds do before deciding if it is really worth it to invest in the more expensive foods for one's own flock. Ideally, our back yard birds will range enough to only be fed at all as a precaution during summer months when the foraging optortunities are at their best, and then maintained during winter when production is lower. And treats don't count because treats short circuit the birds instincts to balance their own rations when left to forage. So for a longer-life of a back yard laying hen with good forage 3 seasons, commercial layer rations are probably more than adequate protein wise AND balanced with the "other stuff" the bird needs to survive.

One thing they say helps with the "gout " symptoms of too much calcium (in particular) and protein (though studies show that's less problematic) is to increase the acidity of the food or water ... so ACV in the water of fermented feed.

I think people are getting some outside "pressure" to up the proteins for their birds ... most feeds don't contain animal proteins these days, so people offer those as supplements or treats ... lots of human health "experts" advise eating poultry products from birds not fed corn or soy (or anything else, sometimes) and emphasize what's essentially a Paleo diet for the birds throughout their lives ... if you know anything at all about poultry nutrition you can tell these advisors are talking out their backsides, and if you ask them for more specific info they drown themselves in double-speak. It gets confusing -- we do this because we want a healthy product for ourselves and a bird that is healthier and happier than a factory farmed bird, so our ears are open towards the advise, even if it isn't scientifically or experientialy supported. I'm pretty sure I'm witnessing some people selling eggs as my "competition" who are more than a little bit confused about what they've been feeding their birds ... and don't really know if their birds are free-range or pastured or confined ... or what. I get lots if second-hand advise from customers ...

And then this heritage breed conservancy group promoting the high protein diets ...

It's for sure inspired me to dig into the research so I'm not led astray ...

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Phew. That big dump of seriousness reminds me ... today at lunch I was doing my standard dinner theater presentation of Look How Pretty Our Eggs Are! for my father, who is also my current poultry partner and housemate. I asked him, "all things considered, which do you think would be a better strategy for us? Breeding for pretty eggs, or breeding for the heritage breed restoration project?"

Guess what he answered.

 

[Beekissed]

But then....that also leaves the issue of which research does one believe because sure as shootin' as soon as you see research for something there will be a research against it, much like in human health concerns and diets. First coffee is bad, then it's good, then eggs are bad but now they are good but, wait!... now they are bad again...ad nauseum.

I pretty much just lean on common sense for the most part and let everyone else argue about dietary percentages of their ever more complicated feed mixes. Granny got by on shelled out whole corn she grew on the farm and free range and if it comes to reverting to that when the chips are down that's exactly what I will do too.

Here's a neat thing my BF sent me via email that I thought you all would like....

Quote:
She was right -- our generation didn't have the 'green thing' in its day.

Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were recycled.

Grocery stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags, that we reused for numerous things, most memorable besides household garbage bags, was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our schoolbooks. This was to ensure that public property, (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribbling. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags.

We walked up stairs, because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building.

We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks.

Back then, we washed the baby's diapers because we didn't have the throwaway kind.

We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning up 220 volts -- wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days.

Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.

Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house -- not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana .

In the kitchen, we blended and stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us.

When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap.

Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power.

We exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity.

We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water.

We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.

Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service in the family's $45,000 SUV or van, which cost what a whole house did before the "green thing."

We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint.

But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the "green thing" back then?

Please forward this on to another selfish old person who needs a lesson in conservation from a smart aleck young person...

We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to tick us off...especially from a tattooed, multiple pierced
smart aleck who can't make change without the cash register telling them how much.

 

[Beekissed]

Phew. That big dump of seriousness reminds me ... today at lunch I was doing my standard dinner theater presentation of Look How Pretty Our Eggs Are! for my father, who is also my current poultry partner and housemate. I asked him, "all things considered, which do you think would be a better strategy for us? Breeding for pretty eggs, or breeding for the heritage breed restoration project?"

Guess what he answered.

Pretty eggs?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

  Pretty eggs? 

Yep!