The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[Fred's Hens]

The Truth About Good and Decent Breeders.

Breeders often get wrongly accused of being selfish and not "spreading good birds around" kinda thing. The reality is this. True, honest to goodness committed breeders care only about the breed. The want to see it preserved and that cannot be done by mere propigation. Just haphazzardly allowing propigation (which passes for "breeding" in conversation on internet forums like this) is not breeding. Anyone can propigate.

To preserve the breed, to love the breed require dedication and long term careful breeding. This dedication costs these breeders thousands of dollars a year in housing, equipment and especially feed. Chores done morning and night, regardless the season or the weather. It's hard work and it is not profitable, it costs breeders to be good breeders.

Every Tom, Dick and Mary thinks they should then get eggs or chicks off these dedicated people's labor. People get upset when they are told no. That sense of entitlement so common today. Others want to just buy birds so they can show for ribbons. These people do not care about the breed and cannot or will not commit to the hard work required. They just want instant gratification and this hobby simply won't support that need.

Another thing breeders face is people capitalizing financially on their hard work. People screw them right, left and center and sometimes callousness sets in, understandably. People get culls from a breeder and quickly propigate the birds and the first thing you know they're on here, or FB or Craigs selling eggs and chicks. Of coure, well, of course, they're marketed as "Blah Blah" line of birds. (insert famous name) and more folks think they got something and they too quickly propigate their hatchlings and they too commence marketing them as "Insert famous name" breeder's stock. The beat goes on.

All these folks are destined to be what Bob Blosl, this thread's starter, called "the here today, gone tomorrow" people. Can this be stopped? Not really. P.T. Barnum was right. (refer to his famous quote).

I have hatched over 60 Red bantam chicks already this year none are for sale. Why not? Because I'm serious about growing them up and sorting through them for birds I can use to further the breed. It's about the breed, not famous names and not about me and not about making a buck, becuase in the end, there really isn't money to made in this. Breaking even is really tough.

Am I just being "greedy" keeping all these chicks until I can sort through them? No. This is how it is done if you wish to make progress. Truth be told, I should have hatched over 100. I'll have to guard the 60 I did hatch.

The term Champion. Taking Reserve or Best of Breed is a nice win, but that's not a Champion. Champion means you must at least, at least, win Champion American and then be eligible to compete for Champion Large Fowl. Those are Champions.

Shows are about fellowship of kindred spirits and bonds of friendship. Showing is about peer review of your work. You can say you have good birds, well, if so, bring 'em on. Coop them in. Let the whole world see what you have. Showing is about exhbiting the breed, to support the breed, to fly the flag of the breed. If you win? That's great. You get a plaque or a fancy ribbon. If you don't win anything? Be gracious about it. Don't grouse and complain. They're just chickens. Congratulate those who beat you with genuine handshake. Go have a fun dinner with your friends and go back home and work harder. and love the breed. Only a handful of birds, a tiny handful of birds will be brought up to Champion row. This out of of maybe 6000 birds entered. Just a dozen can be crowned Champion of anything.

You stick with this hobby for awhile. Work hard. Be friendly and polite. Show yourself to not be a "cut 'n run" propigator but serious about learning the craft and working with the birds and slowly, cautiously, the other more experienced folks will begin to befriend you, help you, encourage you and maybe even trust you. It takes time and it has to be earned.

You don't join a DoJo and become a top degreed Black belt in Karate overnight and not without a lot of work. You cannot buy it. So it is with this hobby of being an accomplished poultry breeder/exhibitor. 99% of folks have yet to compute this and make sense of this it seems. It isn't that hard to comprehend, if a person wishes to humbly just listen and open their minds to a world of they honestly don't yet know anything about. It takes years and years.

But then, Bob Blosl's words keep coming back, "here today, gone tomorrow". Or, will you hear his other exhortation that he repeated so often, "Will you be one of the few?" "One of the chose few?"

 

[cmom]

I can happily report that one of the chicks from sick bay has now joined the general population. It's been doing great, so I put it in the brooder with it's sibling to see how it would fare and how it would be treated. It made a mad dash to the heater plate where the other chicks were hanging out, and they didn't give it a second glance. It was no time before it was scooting all over the brooder looking for food. It obviously wasn't happy eating in the incubator, because it was literally climbing over it's siblings to get to the next morsel!

Looking a little rough around the edges, but don't let that fool you. It's full of spunk!!!


Here it is diving into the middle of the pile...


Even if it turns out to be a dud, my wife has already claimed it as her pet. She thinks just because she nursed it back to health she's supposed to be attached, or something goofy like that...

I can understand her. My husband sort of tells me I'm a bit dingy. All of my males have names and a few special females. Friends get on me because I rarely sell any birds. I do not sell my chicks, I grow them out to see what I have. I have some general population pens and some go into them. There does come a time I have to get rid of some birds whether I sell them or they go into the freezer. I keep my best, but do sell some culls and some very nice birds (because I have to).
SECRET... hubby is building me a new coop and then were are going to renovate the Leghorn's coop. Every coop we've built is supposed to be the last coop.

 

[waddles99]

I agree. Don't give up.

I understand your frustration. While it may not seem fair that the top breeders/show winners keep the cream of the crop, and only the crumbs are handed down, you have to keep in mind that the only way to keep their breeding programs going in the right direction is by keeping and breeding the best of the best. Even when that happens, only a very few will make the cut. While it may appear to some as greed, it's merely a matter of survival. In my opinion, you have two options: 1) hatch eggs from show winning birds... or... 2) purchase chicks from a reputable breeder of showbirds. While you may end up with a bunch of so-so birds, you may also wind up with a grand champion in group. It's hard for even seasoned breeders to pick and choose the best eggs or day-old chicks, so the advantage goes to you in this situation.

In continuation of my previous comment, even if the birds aren't top-of-the-line quality, if they've been bred pure they will have the genes of showbirds. It may take some work to refine those genes into creating the birds you want... and it may take years to accomplish... but it's very possible. I hope you do end up in a place where you can raise goats and chickens, and maybe a heifer or two...

Thank you both very much for your kind comments. In a weird sort of way, I am very lucky to be able to have this time period to explore what I am looking for and what I want to avoid. For example, If I lose at a show to someone because their tail angle was to standard and mine was not, I learned something I want to achieve in my birds down the road. It would be even more a shame to get all my breeding pens in order and get some birds and not know what the heck to do with them all. Now this way I know what I want to strive for, what I want to avoid, and how to achieve that.

 

[waddles99]

Breeders often get wrongly accused of being selfish and not "spreading good birds around" kinda thing.

Exactly what I was trying to say. It would obviously be unfair to the breeder If they put in the work, raised up 100 birds and selected maybe 5-6 good ones, all to sell them off to someone who either cannot breed on such a level or is too lazy to do so. Even in my situation where I would be willing to put in the work, it stinks I don't have the resources to breed my RIR further, and while it isn't my fault, it isn't their fault either. And it isn't their job to sell off their good birds.

They don't have to do any of that. They don't even have to sell their culls if they don't want to. Its their birds and their hard work. Luckily, a lot of good people do sell chicks and hatching eggs allowing others to get their start.

 

[cmom]

Quote:
You are really just starting your life. Enjoy it. I'm an old lady who had her first flock around 50 years ago. I had graduated high school and moved out on my own and got my flock, then through the years many things have changed. A lot has happened it that 50 years since I had my first flock. Things change constantly in life. Things were way different back then. You appear to have all of "your ducks (chickens) in a row". Good luck and have fun...

 

[ShrekDawg]

I know dogs are obviously a lot different than birds but I was wondering if chicken breeders ever did what some dog breeders do which is doing co ownerships or letting them/selling to show or breeding homes with contract? Though obviously you can't really necessarily have a contract with chickens since theyre "just chickens" to,most and you cant spay and neuter chickens. With dogs you can sell to pet homes with a spay or neuter contract. Plus pups are harder to raise a whole litter up, more complicated creatures haha and theres really not much market for older dogs. Although its a shame cause it seems you can't really tell as pups how they will grow out and you could sell a potential grand champion to a pet home. Though I guess with dogs its a little easier to at least see basic structure and major faults and disqualifications even as pups, with chicks that's nearly impossible. But ut would be interesting if people ever did that or mentored other chicken owners and breeders.

 

[Ur-ur-ur-urrr]

The Truth About Good and Decent Breeders.

Breeders often get wrongly accused of being selfish and not "spreading good birds around" kinda thing.  The reality is this.  True, honest to goodness committed breeders care only about the breed.  The want to see it preserved and that cannot be done by mere propigation.  Just haphazzardly allowing propigation (which passes for "breeding" in conversation on internet forums like this) is not breeding.  Anyone can propigate.

To preserve the breed, to love the breed require dedication and long term careful breeding.  This dedication costs these breeders thousands of dollars a year in housing, equipment and especially feed.  Chores done morning and night, regardless the season or the weather.  It's hard work and it is not profitable, it costs breeders to be good breeders.  

Every Tom, Dick and Mary thinks they should then get eggs or chicks off these dedicated people's labor.  People get upset when they are told no.  That sense of entitlement so common today.  Others want to just buy birds so they can show for ribbons.  These people do not care about the breed and cannot or will not commit to the hard work required.  They just want instant gratification and this hobby simply won't support that need.

Another thing breeders face is people capitalizing financially on their hard work. People screw them right, left and center and sometimes callousness sets in, understandably.   People get culls from a breeder and quickly propigate the birds and the first thing you know they're on here, or FB or Craigs selling eggs and chicks.  Of coure, well, of course, they're marketed as "Blah Blah" line of birds.  (insert famous name) and more folks think they got something and they too quickly propigate their hatchlings and they too commence marketing them as "Insert famous name" breeder's stock.  The beat goes on.

All these folks are destined to be what Bob Blosl, this thread's starter, called "the here today, gone tomorrow" people.  Can this be stopped?  Not really.  P.T. Barnum was right.   (refer to his famous quote).

I have hatched over 60 Red bantam chicks already this year none are for sale.  Why not?  Because I'm serious about growing them up and sorting through them for birds I can use to further the breed.  It's about the breed, not famous names and not about me and not about making a buck, becuase in the end, there really isn't money to made in this.  Breaking even is really tough.

Am I just being "greedy" keeping all these chicks until I can sort through them?  No.  This is how it is done if you wish to make progress.  Truth be told, I should have hatched over 100.  I'll have to guard the 60 I did hatch.

The term Champion.   Taking Reserve or Best of Breed is a nice win, but that's not a Champion.  Champion means you must at least, at least, win Champion American and then be eligible to compete for Champion Large Fowl.  Those are Champions.  

Shows are about fellowship of kindred spirits and bonds of friendship. Showing is about peer review of your work. You can say you have good birds, well, if so, bring 'em on.  Coop them in.  Let the whole world see what you have. Showing is about exhbiting the breed, to support the breed, to fly the flag of the breed.  If you win?  That's great. You get a plaque or a fancy ribbon.   If you don't win anything? Be gracious about it. Don't grouse and complain. They're just chickens. Congratulate those who beat you with genuine handshake.  Go have a fun dinner with your friends and go back home and work harder. and love the breed.  Only a handful of birds, a tiny handful of birds will be brought up to Champion row.  This out of of maybe 6000 birds entered.  Just a dozen can be crowned Champion of anything. 

You stick with this hobby for awhile.  Work hard. Be friendly and polite.  Show yourself to not be a "cut 'n run" propigator but serious about learning the craft and working with the birds and slowly, cautiously, the other more experienced folks will begin to befriend you, help you, encourage you and maybe even trust you.  It takes time and it has to be earned.

You don't join a DoJo and become a top degreed Black belt in Karate overnight and not without a lot of work. You cannot buy it.  So it is with this hobby of being an accomplished poultry breeder/exhibitor.  99% of folks have yet to compute this and make sense of this it seems.  It isn't that hard to comprehend, if a person wishes to humbly just listen and open their minds to a world of they honestly don't yet know anything about.  It takes years and years.

But then, Bob Blosl's words keep coming back, "here today, gone tomorrow".  Or, will you hear his other exhortation that he repeated so often, "Will you be one of the few?" "One of the chose few?"

Words to live by...

I can understand her. My husband sort of tells me I'm a bit dingy. All of my males have names and a few special females. Friends get on me because I rarely sell any birds. I do not sell my chicks, I grow them out to see what I have. I have some general population pens and some go into them. There does come a time I have to get rid of some birds whether I sell them or they go into the freezer. I keep my best, but do sell some culls and some very nice birds (because I have to).
SECRET... hubby is building me a new coop and then were are going to renovate the Leghorn's coop. Every coop we've built is supposed to be the last coop.

Technically, when you finish building a coop, it IS the last coop... until you start the next one!

Thank you both very much for your kind comments. In a weird sort of way, I am very lucky to be able to have this time period to explore what I am looking for and what I want to avoid. For example, If I lose at a show to someone because their tail angle was to standard and mine was not, I learned something I want to achieve in my birds down the road. It would be even more a shame to get all my breeding pens in order and get some birds and not know what the heck to do with them all. Now this way I know what I want to strive for, what I want to avoid, and how to achieve that. 

Planning your strategy and setting goals is a great place to start. The next step is learning every thing you can about the breed, and what it'll take to maintain and improve the line. There will be a lot of expense, culling, and loses involved. It is a commitment that should not be taken lightly. If you believe you have what it takes, go for it. You don't have to have show birds to start off. As Matt Ulrich told me, he's had champion birds whose offspring he wouldn't show, and he's had birds he wouldn't show produce champions. It all boils down to having good genes...

You are really just starting your life. Enjoy it. I'm an old lady who had her first flock around 50 years ago. I had graduated high school and moved out on my own and got my flock, then through the years many things have changed. A lot has happened it that 50 years since I had my first flock. Things change constantly in life. Things were way different back then. You appear to have all of "your ducks (chickens) in a row". Good luck and have fun...

 

[ShrekDawg]

This might seem like kind of a stupid question and is 2 questions actually but, how do breeders that do sell eggs and chicks keep good lines then and keep breeding? And how do you tell the difference between a good breeder and someone who just bought the famous lines and is marketing them as such?

 

[cmom]

This might seem like kind of a stupid question and is 2 questions actually but, how do breeders that do sell eggs and chicks keep good lines then and keep breeding? And how do you tell the difference between a good breeder and someone who just bought the famous lines and is marketing them as such?

If you are able, visit the breeder and look at their stock. I keep my birds in family groups and all of the birds are banded so I know who belongs to what family. They are all distant cousins but I'm not in-breeding. Check out the shows and see who is placing well. If they are, most likely they are pretty serious breeders. I also believe there are a lot of people who buy birds from lines and really don't pay attention to their breeding. Just my 2¢.

 

[onarres]

This might seem like kind of a stupid question and is 2 questions actually but, how do breeders that do sell eggs and chicks keep good lines then and keep breeding? And how do you tell the difference between a good breeder and someone who just bought the famous lines and is marketing them as such?

Breeders that sell eggs and chicks will hatch out as many as they can then cull and select the next breeding pairs or trios that will improve the line if they happen to hatch out ones that have those qualities. The hobby can get expensive with feed and housing. Selling eggs and chicks can offset the cost some.

At that point you could call it propagation, but honestly I don't see anything wrong with that. Any breeding, even selective is just one big DNA lottery. Like tickets, the more you buy the better your chances, the more you hatch the better your chances. Selective breeding just improves your chances with no guarantees.

As far as breeders that market such and such lines, take that as advertisment, and like advertisement buyer beware. Word of mouth from RIR community would be a safer bet.