The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[Fred's Hens]

Bob, and the gang here, I have a question for you.

I hatched a female Red some three years ago. She has, still has flaws, but she had some good features. I bred her to the best male we had. Then, I choose the best cockerel produced out of the bunch. Put her under our second best cockerel of the same age. Late last fall, I put that young, year old cockerel back over his mother and two of her daughters from a second cockerel than the young cockerel so as not to breed 100% brother to sisters. Hope that's clear as mud.

I hatched over a dozen pullet chicks from that pen. Here's my question or observation anyhow. Those pullets are now maturing. They are 21 weeks old. I've been working with them in a grow out pen. I've watched these birds, feeding and watering them twice a day since they were chicks. Yet, I am stunned to see they are absolute clones of each other.

I've been looking at birds for a long, long time, yet I've honestly never seen a pen of pullets that look like someone just ran them off on a photo copying machine. They all have the same shade of feathering, same head, same body, same everything.

 

[rndyc]

Where can I get some of these birds they are beautifull

 

[docdandc]

Bob, and the gang here, I have a question for you.

I hatched a female Red some three years ago. She has, still has flaws, but she had some good features. I bred her to the best male we had. Then, I choose the best cockerel produced out of the bunch. Put her under our second best cockerel of the same age. Late last fall, I put that young, year old cockerel back over his mother and two of her daughters from a second cockerel than the young cockerel so as not to breed 100% brother to sisters. Hope that's clear as mud.

I hatched over a dozen pullet chicks from that pen. Here's my question or observation anyhow. Those pullets are now maturing. They are 21 weeks old. I've been working with them in a grow out pen. I've watched these birds, feeding and watering them twice a day since they were chicks. Yet, I am stunned to see they are absolute clones of each other.

I've been looking at birds for a long, long time, yet I've honestly never seen a pen of pullets that look like someone just ran them off on a photo copying machine. They all have the same shade of feathering, same head, same body, same everything.

What was your question? I hope that you mean to say that they are all looking great and your breeding has improved the type. If so, great job. If not, I hope the BBQ goes well for you.

 

[lualshannon]

I have three Pullets @ 10 months old from Ron Fogel and 10 chicks that are 6 weeks old.

The six week old chicks went outside yesterday for the first time yesterday. They are very active so I took a video of the and I will post it after vimeo has compiled it:

Gorgeous chicks!! Even at such a young age, they look majestic!

The Video is ready!

RIRs from Ron Fogel at 6 weeks old:

Eye candy............

 

[Fred's Hens]

What was your question? I hope that you mean to say that they are all looking great and your breeding has improved the type. If so, great job. If not, I hope the BBQ goes well for you.

A couple of questions or pondering thoughts really. First, I didn't expect that "cloning" look or such drastic uniformity. Second, the uniformity coms with both a blessing and curse. Good news is they have great color, pretty good length and feather. But, they all have the same bad tails. Next go round, we really going to work on that fault.

Is this uniformity in look going to work against improving the tails? In other words, are they really stamped with that feature strongly?

 

[RedRidge]

Quote: While I am not near as knowledgeable as I'd like (or as most people here) about HRIR genetics (or chicken genetics in general), I am a genetics freak... just a passion of mine that I have pursued with a variety of living things... humans, but primarily animals. The following definition is meant as a generic explanation for all... not meant as a "talking down to" for all those folks who know more about HRIR genetics (or chicken genetics in general) than I do. Simply a basic explanation...

By simple definition line breeding is going to "set" traits... good traits and bad traits. The art of "breeding" (IMO) requires knowing when to go outside your lines (or way further back in your lines) and to what... and then culling RUTHLESSLY with the results to attempt to get that improvement without too much damage to the set "good traits" you don't want to loose.
The tighter you line breed... the tighter you set traits (both good and bad).

It's all about compromise. Something I am never willing to do. So there is always room for improvement.
Which is why it is so challenging. I love a challenge

You will NEVER get better tails if your animals are so tightly line bred and none of them have good tails. You have to get those good tails from an outside source.
Or, pick your absolute best tail (which may be generations back even it has other traits you want improved)... breed that bird to this latest generation.
You can never expect an improvement on a trait it that high quality trait isn't genetically there to begin with... it won't just magically appear.

Now you are probably thinking... but everything else is so wonderful that I don't want to give up all the other traits I've so strongly set.
Yes, but... you can only do so much... do research... find that absolute best tail you can from someone else who has also tightly line bred for good tails and "hopefully" (this is the hard part) has a nice flock whose biggest fault can be overcome by your setting of your good faults.
Anyway you look at it... it's still an outcross. You will get results all over the board... most of which need to be culled. If you get ONE tail that you want you have made progress. That animal then gets bred back in the hopes of setting the tail trait "eventually".
Here's the tricky part... it may not work... so while you may loose "time", don't loose your original genetics or you can never go back.

So... question for you... do you have a bird still from a previous generation who has a better tail than these?

 

[Fred's Hens]

Thanks for the reply.

Some background is in order. Our birds are Kittle birds from many years ago. They were pen "bred" (propagated, really) for years, without a plan, by the previous owner, but never outcrossed. The poor tails are their bad feature. Since we took them over, other very fine traits have re-surfaced, as I mentioned earlier. Very pleased.

With the addition of two birds from Jimmy, birds that look to have very nice tails,(too soon to judge) we'll be seeking to make this improvement. Jimmy's birds and our birds have been apart for a very, very long time, which is a good thing.

But now, this next crossing is crucial, to my mind. I got a male and a female from Jimmy. Here's a photo I posted earlier. I just really would be grateful for guidance on this next step. Don't want to screw this up.




Now, Here is a shot of some of the pullets in our pen. The flash washed out the front birds. The lower, back birds are more indicative of their true color. The pullet on the right is on alert and standing on one foot. But they really all are clones of the bird on the left

 

[Chris Herzog]

While I am not near as knowledgeable as I'd like (or as most people here) about HRIR genetics (or chicken genetics in general), I am a genetics freak... just a passion of mine that I have pursued with a variety of living things... humans, but primarily animals. The following definition is meant as a generic explanation for all... not meant as a "talking down to" for all those folks who know more about HRIR genetics (or chicken genetics in general) than I do. Simply a basic explanation...

By simple definition line breeding is going to "set" traits... good traits and bad traits. The art of "breeding" (IMO) requires knowing when to go outside your lines (or way further back in your lines) and to what... and then culling RUTHLESSLY with the results to attempt to get that improvement without too much damage to the set "good traits" you don't want to loose.
The tighter you line breed... the tighter you set traits (both good and bad).

It's all about compromise. Something I am never willing to do. So there is always room for improvement.
Which is why it is so challenging. I love a challenge

You will NEVER get better tails if your animals are so tightly line bred and none of them have good tails. You have to get those good tails from an outside source.
Or, pick your absolute best tail (which may be generations back even it has other traits you want improved)... breed that bird to this latest generation.
You can never expect an improvement on a trait it that high quality trait isn't genetically there to begin with... it won't just magically appear.

Now you are probably thinking... but everything else is so wonderful that I don't want to give up all the other traits I've so strongly set.
Yes, but... you can only do so much... do research... find that absolute best tail you can from someone else who has also tightly line bred for good tails and "hopefully" (this is the hard part) has a nice flock whose biggest fault can be overcome by your setting of your good faults.
Anyway you look at it... it's still an outcross. You will get results all over the board... most of which need to be culled. If you get ONE tail that you want you have made progress. That animal then gets bred back in the hopes of setting the tail trait "eventually".
Here's the tricky part... it may not work... so while you may loose "time", don't loose your original genetics or you can never go back.

So... question for you... do you have a bird still from a previous generation who has a better tail than these?

I have a question along the same lines….

I have birds that I acquired from a few different sources but are of the same line. Most of the pullets had pinched tails and were culled early. I had a number of cockerels with to high of an angle on their tails but other than tail angle the tails looked good. I kept 2 cockerels with the best tail angle and 4 Pullets with the least pinched tail and bread the birds from person A to the birds from person B. I'm growing out the chicks now and have been culling hard. The chicks are now about 14-15 weeks old and I have 7 pullets that I’m liking what I see so far. The rest, another 20 or so were culled over the last month. I also kept and am still growing out about 10 cockerels from this bunch.

My plan was to pick the best 4 pullets and breed them back to my original cock birds and not breed my cockerels this year at all. I’m thinking that if I put this years cockerels over the original hens that I have (their mothers) I will just be setting in deeper the pinched tail trait that I’m trying to get away from. However, If any of the cockerels do turn out nice, I’ll show them this year and I can always use them down the road once I get what I’m after with the tails on the girls.

My question is…. Am I on the right path with this line of thinking?

Thanks in advance,
Chris

 

[FOGELLY]

I am not an expert on this, but here is my thinking.
When you line breed you always have to think in terms of which birds blood will be most prevalent. If you breed to cure pinched tails from your hens and breed one of their offspring back to them they will now be 3/4 hens blood and would set their traits.
I would look to breed their cockerels to others in the family that display the trait you are working to or vise versa. Then phase the original hens out of your line.

Pinched tails is a difficult trait to fix, but I would surly not go outside of your strain to fix it.

I am a little spoiled when it comes to this.The hens in my strain has some of the best tails I have seen.

Ron

 

[RedRidge]

I am not an expert on this, but here is my thinking.
When you line breed you always have to think in terms of which birds blood will be most prevalent. If you breed to cure pinched tails from your hens and breed one of their offspring back to them they will now be 3/4 hens blood and would set their traits.
I would look to breed their cockerels to others in the family that display the trait you are working to or vise versa. Then phase the original hens out of your line.

Pinched tails is a difficult trait to fix, but I would surly not go outside of your strain to fix it.

I am a little spoiled when it comes to this.The hens in my strain has some of the best tails I have seen.

Ron

And this is where knowledge of HRIR genetics and your own genetics is important.
I love genetics... but am so new to HRIR genetics that I am still heavily counting on guidance from those who sold me my lines...
The saying "you don't really know what you have" applies to me in this area.... I know I like what I have... but I don't have the knowledge (and never will) that is in the minds of the people who spent several generations developing and maintaining these traits.
I can only hope to glean as much knowledge as possible in my journey. And I'm very grateful to this with experience in these lines who are willing to mentor.