The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[Rancher3535]

I still can't believe that if I take a 100% pure Underwood male and put him over a 100% pure Underwood female that it could be anything but a 100% pure Underwood bloodline chick. Now if this is true then the Underwood will always be. If not then I give up. I can't answer questions about any of my birds if I can't even say what lines they are. I don't only have one but the way you folks are talking, I would only have one.
Geez, this is totally mind boggling to me. lol

.

The difference is how we are looking at the terms. Line, blood line, etc... Confusion comes when we ( I ) start to breed the birds. One can always have, example Underwood bloodline, but what changes is how they are mated. Underwood sees a bird one way and is working on that goal/trait and the new breeder will see the same bird totally different and use it in a totally different way. In the long run, they change in many aspects of the line. One of the old time breeders and judges, Homer Endersby, used to say blood is blood but that doesn't mean that will out weigh a good eye.

We can go on and on about the differences...basically it is how we the individual thinks of the terms...line...bloodline...etc.

 

[immyjay54]

Once birds change hands it's a little misleading to refer to their offspring as being of the original line. If, for example, someone bought Reds from gary Underwood the only way to legitimately call their offsspring "Underwood Reds" would be to have gary come over & set up your breeding pens according to his selection preferences. The least important thing about birds is the name of the person they may have originally come from.
I judged some Sumatras at a recent show. The owner of some of the birds asked me to review them with him after the show, which I did. He named 2 well known sumatra breeders as having been the source of the birds or at least that was what he was told by the person who sold him the birds. The 3 birds I lookd at were undersized, very narrow feathered & 2 of the 3 had small, narrow heads more like those of a Modern Game Bantam. This fellow bought names not birds.
I know that Bob Blosl used to state that Don Nelson's birds were a 30-40 year pure strain. Don, however, says different. According to Don he mixed birds from several different sources, including some production birds, in the process of developing his Reds. A quote from Don goes "I breed birds not names".
I see evidence of this strain-name culture at many shows. People frequently make the claim that their birds come from some well known breeder but when question it turns out that they didn't buy those birds from that breeder but from an intermediary source. In some cases this results from dishonest sellers "name dropping", in other it's a result of unsuccessfull mating decisionsEither way, the source [name] of the birds is unimportant. What is important is what's the bird in front of you look like, not who did it's ancestors come from.

Bill,
I 100% totally agree with what you said about Don Nelson's birds. Here is his exact words:
My line is far from pure,I have an old line base but have added Myers,Underwood,production,Bowers(old related line) to my flock over the last 20 years.I feel by selectively adding different birds that I have improved my Reds significantly over the ones I started with,There were mistakes made and many times took steps backward to move forward.The Reds now are larger in body size,earlier maturing,better and earlier layers,and have great color and feather quality.

Now, I am going to try once more at this. When any chicken (like anything else) is born it has a certain amount of blood, right? That blood came from it's mother and dad, right?
Now there are many strains, but, a bloodline comes from the blood that is in that bird. Am I right or wrong. I'm not caring about whose name is on that particular bird. Now, if there are 5 birds that came from 5 different bloodlines, if they are not given a certain name or number then how on earth would we describe the different bloodlines.
I don't say that I have the Nelson or the Underwood or the Reese birds because I want to run around with my chest stuck out claiming that I have these peoples birds. My gosh, I don't feel that I am any better then anyone else or that they are any better then me. All I say that for is to let people know where this particular bloodline comes from.
What I'm trying to say is this. The birds that I bought from Gary Underwood and the chicks that I raise from these very same birds came from the bloodline that George and Gary Underwood developed from way back years ago. They created this certain line of birds just as Don Nelson did. Now, unless I was to drain every drop of blood out of these birds and replace it with blood from the birds that came from Don Nelson would these birds from Gary not still have the same blood as the birds that are on Gary's property? I'm not trying to cause a big ruckus here but this is making no sense to me what so ever.
Again, I fully understand what you said in your post and agree. I'm not trying to be a big shot claiming that I have Underwood etc lines to get sales. It is just that if folks like a certain line of bird and are looking for that certain line of bird, is it wrong for me to say that I have the Underwood line. Now if what all has been said on here is true then I would be lying to say that.
This really doesn't make the birds any better or worse but there are a lot of people selling birds that have been crossed with others that look like crap and I sure wouldn't want them.
When I bought eggs from you and you said they were from the Nelson line birds, I expected a certain kind of bird. If you would have told me that these eggs were coming from Sadie Johnson's line of birds I would have no idea what they were going to look like or turn out. With knowing the line that these birds came from it was real easy for me to say send me some.
If I would mix two of my different lines of birds that I have then they would not be the same bloodline of either parent because they would be coming from two different lines.
Holy Cow, I sure do hope that maybe this is a little more clear of what I have been saying from the beginning. It has nothing to do with the persons name, it has all to do with the bloodline of birds that that person was breeding. I hope that everyone knows that I'm not that stupid to know that I will not see/produce the same thing as Joe Blow or Sam Smith but with my knowing who NYREDS and Don Nelson is then I felt very comfortable buying eggs from you to get birds that Don Nelson had worked hard to produce his line.

If this post does not clarify what I am trying to get across then I'm sorry, I'm done with this and I am surely sorry for ever bringing this up.
Jim

 

[SallyinIndiana]

I'm thinking about and planning for something of a breeding buddy. Once I get a few more pictures and my breeder roosters picked out, I would like to find someone local to serve as a backup plan in case something happened to my RIR chickens.
How is this typically done? Are there any specific requests that need to be made? How many chickens would I need to provide the breeding buddy. Right now I have 3 of each gender so I really only have 1 extra rooster. How important is it to have another RIR breeder with the same line as me close by?

 

[immyjay54]

I'm thinking about and planning for something of a breeding buddy. Once I get a few more pictures and my breeder roosters picked out, I would like to find someone local to serve as a backup plan in case something happened to my RIR chickens.
How is this typically done? Are there any specific requests that need to be made? How many chickens would I need to provide the breeding buddy. Right now I have 3 of each gender so I really only have 1 extra rooster. How important is it to have another RIR breeder with the same line as me close by?

You may need to wait until you have a few more if your buddy doesn't have any at all. I have a friend in W Va that is about 1 1/2 hour drive from me. I had 10 pullets and 5 cockerels and I gave him 5 of the pullets and 3 of the cockerels. I also gave him a dozen of eggs which he hatched out. This way we will both have a nice little flock to work with. In a couple of years we will shift a few back and forth and that way we will have birds that aren't full brother and sisters to work with and keep the line going. My thoughts are the we would want to be breeding toward the sop and the best traits that we can get with the birds that we have. Also we will want to let each other know any faults that we come across.
This is just what we are planning on doing with these birds.
Jim.
If you can't find someone close enough you could do like Gary told me and split yours up into different families and use your own back each 5 or 6 generations. This would mean more pens though.
Just my opinion

 

[Fred's Hens]

I agree.

Sally, this would be my plan. Actually? It is my plan, LOL, as I am starting with so few as well.

Put your #1 cockerel over your #1 pullet. #2 over #2. Then, after a few weeks, swap. Keep careful records in the chance that one of these 4 possible matings combinations produces noticeably better birds. I'm a firm believer that tracking the hen is every bit as important as tracking the cock bird used.

Personally, it will be very important for you (and me) to get 40-50 chicks out of these matings. We've simply got to get more birds to sort through for 2015. Got to look forward. Don't expect to keep them all, but by this time next year? I'd love to say WOW, I've got these three wonderful pullets to put back under their sires. All I'd need is one stunning new cockerel to keep to put back over the dams of this year. One doesn't have to get out of control, numbers wise, and pen wise. But, without putting significant numbers of chicks on the ground to pick through, we just aren't making the needed progress.

Again, hatching out 40-50 chicks is my goal, but next year at this time? There would only be 10-12 total birds that are kept. That's all. The partner can come in next year. They can take 1/2 of those breeders, cutting my winter over numbers down to just 5 or 6. Then, in 2015, the cycle repeats again. But each of us can hatch out 40-50 chicks, doubling our efforts. Plus, no predator could wipe out both of our flocks or some other unforeseen Armageddon. Hope that helps.

 

[immyjay54]

I agree.

Sally, this would be my plan. Actually? It is my plan, LOL, as I am starting with so few as well.

Put your #1 cockerel over your #1 pullet. #2 over #2. Then, after a few weeks, swap. Keep careful records in the chance that one of these 4 possible matings combinations produces noticeably better birds. I'm a firm believer that tracking the hen is every bit as important as tracking the cock bird used.

Personally, it will be very important for you (and me) to get 40-50 chicks out of these matings. We've simply got to get more birds to sort through for 2015. Got to look forward. Don't expect to keep them all, but by this time next year? I'd love to say WOW, I've got these three wonderful pullets to put back under their sires. All I'd need is one stunning new cockerel to keep to put back over the dams of this year. One doesn't have to get out of control, numbers wise, and pen wise. But, without putting significant numbers of chicks on the ground to pick through, we just aren't making the needed progress.

Again, hatching out 40-50 chicks is my goal, but next year at this time? There would only be 10-12 total birds that are kept. That's all. The partner can come in next year. They can take 1/2 of those breeders, cutting my winter over numbers down to just 5 or 6. Then, in 2015, the cycle repeats again. But each of us can hatch out 40-50 chicks, doubling our efforts. Plus, no predator could wipe out both of our flocks or some other unforeseen Armageddon. Hope that helps.

Good post Fred. I hope all of our dreams happen just the way we plan. lol Good luck to you all. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Jim

 

[NestingHillsSC]

Does the validity of this test depend on which feather you pluck or will any feather do?

Not sure. He pulled it off his back.

 

[John farmer]

Bill,
I 100% totally agree with what you said about Don Nelson's birds. Here is his exact words:
My line is far from pure,I have an old line base but have added Myers,Underwood,production,Bowers(old related line) to my flock over the last 20 years.I feel by selectively adding different birds that I have improved my Reds significantly over the ones I started with,There were mistakes made and many times took steps backward to move forward.The Reds now are larger in body size,earlier maturing,better and earlier layers,and have great color and feather quality.

Now, I am going to try once more at this. When any chicken (like anything else) is born it has a certain amount of blood, right? That blood came from it's mother and dad, right?
Now there are many strains, but, a bloodline comes from the blood that is in that bird. Am I right or wrong. I'm not caring about whose name is on that particular bird. Now, if there are 5 birds that came from 5 different bloodlines, if they are not given a certain name or number then how on earth would we describe the different bloodlines.
I don't say that I have the Nelson or the Underwood or the Reese birds because I want to run around with my chest stuck out claiming that I have these peoples birds. My gosh, I don't feel that I am any better then anyone else or that they are any better then me. All I say that for is to let people know where this particular bloodline comes from.
What I'm trying to say is this. The birds that I bought from Gary Underwood and the chicks that I raise from these very same birds came from the bloodline that George and Gary Underwood developed from way back years ago. They created this certain line of birds just as Don Nelson did. Now, unless I was to drain every drop of blood out of these birds and replace it with blood from the birds that came from Don Nelson would these birds from Gary not still have the same blood as the birds that are on Gary's property? I'm not trying to cause a big ruckus here but this is making no sense to me what so ever.
Again, I fully understand what you said in your post and agree. I'm not trying to be a big shot claiming that I have Underwood etc lines to get sales. It is just that if folks like a certain line of bird and are looking for that certain line of bird, is it wrong for me to say that I have the Underwood line. Now if what all has been said on here is true then I would be lying to say that.
This really doesn't make the birds any better or worse but there are a lot of people selling birds that have been crossed with others that look like crap and I sure wouldn't want them.
When I bought eggs from you and you said they were from the Nelson line birds, I expected a certain kind of bird. If you would have told me that these eggs were coming from Sadie Johnson's line of birds I would have no idea what they were going to look like or turn out. With knowing the line that these birds came from it was real easy for me to say send me some.
If I would mix two of my different lines of birds that I have then they would not be the same bloodline of either parent because they would be coming from two different lines.
Holy Cow, I sure do hope that maybe this is a little more clear of what I have been saying from the beginning. It has nothing to do with the persons name, it has all to do with the bloodline of birds that that person was breeding. I hope that everyone knows that I'm not that stupid to know that I will not see/produce the same thing as Joe Blow or Sam Smith but with my knowing who NYREDS and Don Nelson is then I felt very comfortable buying eggs from you to get birds that Don Nelson had worked hard to produce his line.

If this post does not clarify what I am trying to get across then I'm sorry, I'm done with this and I am surely sorry for ever bringing this up.
Jim

I agree with most of what was said I like to use the word foundation stock for a line of birds I am using in my breeding but always try and be sure people understand they are my line now and i am doing my best to improve them.and I do use names of breeders that my stock came from but it's just that they came from there, they are not their stock they are mine. jm2¢

 

[flowerchild59]

Does anyone have any good head shots (especially of the combs) of hens/pullets of the RC and the SC birds. I would like to see a comparison, and have found few to do so.

 

[RedRidge]

I agree.

Sally, this would be my plan.  Actually?  It is my plan, LOL, as I am starting with so few as well.

Put your #1 cockerel over your #1 pullet. #2 over #2.   Then, after a few weeks, swap.  Keep careful records in the chance that one of these 4 possible matings combinations produces noticeably better birds.   I'm a firm believer that tracking the hen is every bit as important as tracking the cock bird used. 

Personally, it will be very important for you (and me) to get 40-50 chicks out of these matings.  We've simply got to get more birds to sort through for 2015.  Got to look forward.  Don't expect to keep them all, but by this time next year?  I'd love to say WOW, I've got these three wonderful pullets to put back under their sires.  All I'd need is one stunning new cockerel to keep to put back over the dams of this year.  One doesn't have to get out of control, numbers wise, and pen wise.  But, without putting significant numbers of chicks on the ground to pick through, we just aren't making the needed progress.

Again, hatching out 40-50 chicks is my goal, but next year at this time?  There would only be 10-12 total birds that are kept.  That's all.  The partner can come in next year.  They can take 1/2 of those breeders, cutting my winter over numbers down to just 5 or 6. Then, in 2015, the cycle repeats again. But each of us can hatch out 40-50 chicks, doubling our efforts.  Plus, no predator could wipe out both of our flocks or some other unforeseen Armageddon. Hope that helps.

Fred and Sally... this is my plan also. I would love to find someone within a reasonable distance who truly has an interest in RC. My biggest concern is catastrophic loss... Not to mention reduce costs of over wintering, and. .. Two heads are frequently better than one.
I have reduced my cockerels to six. .. I am having a harder time sorting thru my pullets so I have 8 of those. The pullets are just now to pol and are really starting to redden up.