I have never understood this concept. I don't mean to offend anyone, but how can all three be god and yet be one god? and what is the holy spirit?
any explaination would be apprecieated.
any explaination would be apprecieated.
the holy trinity?
- Thread starter arabookworm
- Start date
Quote:
I could not explain it any better than this page does. Happy reading!
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/trinity.htm
I could not explain it any better than this page does. Happy reading!
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/trinity.htm
I fear that you will not receive a satisfactory explanation of this here on the forum. The biggest issue is explaining an infinite concept with our frail and finite language. Even Christians themselves have problems with the concept and how to explain it to themselves and others. The only way to begin to understand it at all is to allow The Bible to explain its own concepts and not rely on someone's idea of what the Trinity is, not writings of anyone else or philosophies, but the Book itself must define it's own terms. You can read the verses below, but this is a very deep and complex subject and just not suited to a chicken forum, truthfully. As we are body, mind and spirit, so is God, a triune being.
This passage from the Authorized Version 1611 explains the concept of Jesus as God come to earth in human flesh.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
This passage from the Authorized Version 1611 explains the concept of Jesus as God come to earth in human flesh.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
Being in agreement with the others, seek the truth from the Bible; James 1:5 assures us that if we seek wisdom and ask He (God) will give generously.
A simple example that I share with my children goes like this:
Think of the Sun. It has a physical mass of rock, gas & fire = God; It radiates light = Jesus; The light generates heat (power) = Holy Spirit. Three seperate entities all working together as One. None can operate alone or without the other.
A simple example that I share with my children goes like this:
Think of the Sun. It has a physical mass of rock, gas & fire = God; It radiates light = Jesus; The light generates heat (power) = Holy Spirit. Three seperate entities all working together as One. None can operate alone or without the other.
onion, bell pepper and celery
Any explanation by man will always come up short, but if I might be allowed I will try to explain. The Hebrew old testament and the Koran both teach that God is One. He says this of himself, but he also said that man is a sinner in need of savior. The blood of bulls and goats being sacrificed could not satisfy the need for forgiveness for falling away from God. God in his infinite love provided a means. He became flesh and blood. He became the eternal payment, sacrifice, for the sin of man. Since the Bible tells us that no man can look at God in all his glory and live, that human form we call Jesus is God in the flesh. That which we are allowed to see. The Father is God because he is the source of the creation of the son. The Holy Spirit is God because he is the mind of God. We are created in the image of God; Body, Soul, and Spirit. We each have a Body with which to serve God. We have a mind and a spirit. The Mind of Jesus was God's mind, The power by which Jesus did the things he did was by the Spirit of God. God in his oneness has always existed in Body, in Mind, and in Spirit. We separate the three but in God they are just God. Not three gods as some see, but one God. I hope this helps.
There are many different beliefs in Christian churches concerning the subject. Debate is always at the door, but if you were to just read the scriptures, look them up on a computer, you'll find the answers.
Jesus claimed to be God, to be the I AM of the Old Testament, with God and equal to God
Jesus claimed to be before Abraham, who was nearly 2000 years before Jesus' birth.
Jesus claimed to be the ONLY WAY, the SAVIOUR, a title reserved for God.
Jesus accepted worship, something reserved only for God.
It was God's blood that was shed on the cross, therefore Jesus is God.
Since there is only one God, if Jesus claims to be diety as he did in John 1:1, then he must be the one and only God.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the concept is. Man makes up a lot of names for concepts which God takes for granted in his word.
There are many different beliefs in Christian churches concerning the subject. Debate is always at the door, but if you were to just read the scriptures, look them up on a computer, you'll find the answers.
Jesus claimed to be God, to be the I AM of the Old Testament, with God and equal to God
Jesus claimed to be before Abraham, who was nearly 2000 years before Jesus' birth.
Jesus claimed to be the ONLY WAY, the SAVIOUR, a title reserved for God.
Jesus accepted worship, something reserved only for God.
It was God's blood that was shed on the cross, therefore Jesus is God.
Since there is only one God, if Jesus claims to be diety as he did in John 1:1, then he must be the one and only God.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the concept is. Man makes up a lot of names for concepts which God takes for granted in his word.
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Quote:
I was waiting for that. (For people who don't know much about cooking, these three ingredients are often called that because they are the basis for many yummy recipes...I believe French cuisine would be a good example).
I was waiting for that. (For people who don't know much about cooking, these three ingredients are often called that because they are the basis for many yummy recipes...I believe French cuisine would be a good example).
I explain this to my 8th graders like this:
We humans have a particular nature, that is, we share many attributes. We have a "human" way of living; we build homes in some form. We have families in some fashion. We create laws by which we will agree to live, and seem to all need some form of government even if it is a chief and council. It is our nature to nurture our young, to see the small and helpless as 'cute', to want to create and own and collect beautiful and interesting things. Our nature is curious, and sometimes violent. We are also individuals. I cannot read minds or leave my own body to dwell in someone else's body.
God has a nature, too. God is love. Love, not like the ooey-gooey kind, but the sort that knows what is best for another and permits actions for their good even if it is painful for them. Out of love, God creates, because the nature of love is creation of others to love. God is merciful and just and perfect, because if He were not those things, He would not be but a created creature Himself. God is holy, and righteousness.
God is three persons and desires to be known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three existed always, all three are God. Because all three are perfect, holy, righteous, merciful, just, etc, they cannot do anything outside of their nature. God cannot lie or sin, for example, nor make mistakes.
If this is indeed the nature of God, they are not really separate as we are separate. They are joined intimately in a way that we are not. We share a human nature, they share the nature of Divinity. They are fully God, sharing this nature. Yet there are three distinct persons, each given different attributes that make them individual persons.
The nature of God is not completely knowable by us, just as we cannot really and fully know the nature of being an insect or a cat. We can make assumptions based on observations, and we can make conclusions based on what Jesus and the Apostles told us, but we cannot know with complete certainty.
Many ways have been thought out to try and explain it. St Patrick used the shamrock - three leaves yet one plant. The Triangle - three sides, three corners, three angles, yet one geometric shape. None are really adequate, because it lies outside what we can experience and understand. The union of husband and wife is as close as we can get. It is holy because it is a reflection of the Trinity, imperfect reflection because we are imperfect, but a reflection of it nonetheless. God the Father pours out His pure and holy love upon God the Son; God the Son pours His pure and holy love back to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Person that is the life that exists from that love. This kind of perfect, self-giving love will be shared by all of us in Eternity with the Trinity.
God, the Father, is not a human man. He, the Scriptures say, is eternal, 'the same yesterday, today and tomorrow'. He is the One on the throne. It is He who wills something to be done, and it is done.
When Jesus took a human body from a human mother (whom He created), He enfolded Himself in her human nature but His divinity was eternal. It did not change simply because he now had a body. He allowed Himself to be limited in some ways through His human nature, so we could see that he 'became like us in everything but sin". He submitted to the authority of human parents and knew the discomfort of hunger and suffering. He submitted His divinity to a human culture (the Jewish people) and government (both religious law and human law). He prayed to God the Father, to teach us by His example. He fasted and prayed before He did some miracles.
He is now raised from the dead in a glorified and perfect body (as ours will be raised someday glorified and perfect) and He sent the Holy Spirit, to raise our own natures while we live on earth through the gifts of the Gospels, and the many graces received in His holy actions such as in Baptism and the other sacraments, if we are willing participants, to allow ourselves to be perfected as we accept it. We slowly allow God to become more intimate with us as we grow in our love of Him and in faith. In Eternity, we will all have this intimacy with God and with each other. We will be like Adam and Eve; created perfect and intimate with God, but unlike them, we will not have any desire to sin any longer. Our human nature will be like the human nature of Jesus; divinized.
The Scriptures say that Jesus taught many things not written down because the number of books that would be written about the things He taught would fill the earth. It also said that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church to remember all of the things that He taught. The earliest Christians began to write these things to share with new Christians as new communities of Christians formed all over the world. At some point the word Trinity came to be used as a way to understand God, although this word itself is not used in the Scriptures.
You can read the writings of the Church Fathers, the first Christians from many sources; there are many publications of the early writings.
We humans have a particular nature, that is, we share many attributes. We have a "human" way of living; we build homes in some form. We have families in some fashion. We create laws by which we will agree to live, and seem to all need some form of government even if it is a chief and council. It is our nature to nurture our young, to see the small and helpless as 'cute', to want to create and own and collect beautiful and interesting things. Our nature is curious, and sometimes violent. We are also individuals. I cannot read minds or leave my own body to dwell in someone else's body.
God has a nature, too. God is love. Love, not like the ooey-gooey kind, but the sort that knows what is best for another and permits actions for their good even if it is painful for them. Out of love, God creates, because the nature of love is creation of others to love. God is merciful and just and perfect, because if He were not those things, He would not be but a created creature Himself. God is holy, and righteousness.
God is three persons and desires to be known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three existed always, all three are God. Because all three are perfect, holy, righteous, merciful, just, etc, they cannot do anything outside of their nature. God cannot lie or sin, for example, nor make mistakes.
If this is indeed the nature of God, they are not really separate as we are separate. They are joined intimately in a way that we are not. We share a human nature, they share the nature of Divinity. They are fully God, sharing this nature. Yet there are three distinct persons, each given different attributes that make them individual persons.
The nature of God is not completely knowable by us, just as we cannot really and fully know the nature of being an insect or a cat. We can make assumptions based on observations, and we can make conclusions based on what Jesus and the Apostles told us, but we cannot know with complete certainty.
Many ways have been thought out to try and explain it. St Patrick used the shamrock - three leaves yet one plant. The Triangle - three sides, three corners, three angles, yet one geometric shape. None are really adequate, because it lies outside what we can experience and understand. The union of husband and wife is as close as we can get. It is holy because it is a reflection of the Trinity, imperfect reflection because we are imperfect, but a reflection of it nonetheless. God the Father pours out His pure and holy love upon God the Son; God the Son pours His pure and holy love back to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Person that is the life that exists from that love. This kind of perfect, self-giving love will be shared by all of us in Eternity with the Trinity.
God, the Father, is not a human man. He, the Scriptures say, is eternal, 'the same yesterday, today and tomorrow'. He is the One on the throne. It is He who wills something to be done, and it is done.
When Jesus took a human body from a human mother (whom He created), He enfolded Himself in her human nature but His divinity was eternal. It did not change simply because he now had a body. He allowed Himself to be limited in some ways through His human nature, so we could see that he 'became like us in everything but sin". He submitted to the authority of human parents and knew the discomfort of hunger and suffering. He submitted His divinity to a human culture (the Jewish people) and government (both religious law and human law). He prayed to God the Father, to teach us by His example. He fasted and prayed before He did some miracles.
He is now raised from the dead in a glorified and perfect body (as ours will be raised someday glorified and perfect) and He sent the Holy Spirit, to raise our own natures while we live on earth through the gifts of the Gospels, and the many graces received in His holy actions such as in Baptism and the other sacraments, if we are willing participants, to allow ourselves to be perfected as we accept it. We slowly allow God to become more intimate with us as we grow in our love of Him and in faith. In Eternity, we will all have this intimacy with God and with each other. We will be like Adam and Eve; created perfect and intimate with God, but unlike them, we will not have any desire to sin any longer. Our human nature will be like the human nature of Jesus; divinized.
The Scriptures say that Jesus taught many things not written down because the number of books that would be written about the things He taught would fill the earth. It also said that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church to remember all of the things that He taught. The earliest Christians began to write these things to share with new Christians as new communities of Christians formed all over the world. At some point the word Trinity came to be used as a way to understand God, although this word itself is not used in the Scriptures.
You can read the writings of the Church Fathers, the first Christians from many sources; there are many publications of the early writings.
Quote:
I hate to even touch this one because I don't want to offend anyone, but here goes...
The reason you don't understand 'the holy trinity' is because this doctrine is not a Bible teaching.
I will give you the scriptures to show you what the Bible does teach, you can look it up in your bible (Please DO look these up in your Bible), and a few outside resources, like encyclopedia's, and you can make your own decision.
The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: " Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deuteronomy 6:4)....The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies....By the end of the 4th century....the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."-(1976), Micropaedia. Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."-(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
This is what a few encyclopedias have said about the doctrine of the Trinity.
I personally, am a christian, I believe Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son, and the Holy Spirit is God's active force, what He uses to accomplish His will. These are three separate entities. This is what my life-long study of the Bible has lead me to believe.
I do not believe in the Trinity.
John 14:28 says '...If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.' So Jesus NEVER claimed to be equal to God.
Also, the Bible tell us God and Jesus have personal names: Jehovah God(Psalms 83:18), and Jesus Christ, but no where is there a personal name for the holy spirit. Surely if it was equal to God, it too would have a personal name.
If you have taken the time to read this, I know it is a lot to think about.
If you would like to talk about this more, please feel free to PM me, and I could help you understand this subject better.
As I said before, I don't wish to offend anyone, and I will not be talking about this further on the forum, so PM me if you would like to talk.
Have a great day!
I hate to even touch this one because I don't want to offend anyone, but here goes...
The reason you don't understand 'the holy trinity' is because this doctrine is not a Bible teaching.
I will give you the scriptures to show you what the Bible does teach, you can look it up in your bible (Please DO look these up in your Bible), and a few outside resources, like encyclopedia's, and you can make your own decision.
The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: " Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deuteronomy 6:4)....The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies....By the end of the 4th century....the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."-(1976), Micropaedia. Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."-(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
This is what a few encyclopedias have said about the doctrine of the Trinity.
I personally, am a christian, I believe Jehovah is God, Jesus is his son, and the Holy Spirit is God's active force, what He uses to accomplish His will. These are three separate entities. This is what my life-long study of the Bible has lead me to believe.
I do not believe in the Trinity.
John 14:28 says '...If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.' So Jesus NEVER claimed to be equal to God.
Also, the Bible tell us God and Jesus have personal names: Jehovah God(Psalms 83:18), and Jesus Christ, but no where is there a personal name for the holy spirit. Surely if it was equal to God, it too would have a personal name.
If you have taken the time to read this, I know it is a lot to think about.
If you would like to talk about this more, please feel free to PM me, and I could help you understand this subject better.
As I said before, I don't wish to offend anyone, and I will not be talking about this further on the forum, so PM me if you would like to talk.
Have a great day!
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."-(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
Just to be clearer on the teachings of the Catholic Church - this is not fully in context.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
____________________________________________________
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time.
Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).
___________________________________________________
So, there was historically, from very early in the Church teachings on God being a Trinity of persons.
You can go online and read the rest at the link above, if you like, although it is in more scholarly language in this edition!
ADDENDUM: It also has explanations of the Trinity in both the Old and New Testaments further down in the article and in the traditions of the early Christians. Its pretty long and while it is a little scholarly, I am able to understand it so no one should have too much trouble with it.
EDITED to add a thought I hadn't thunk until later.
Just to be clearer on the teachings of the Catholic Church - this is not fully in context.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
____________________________________________________
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time.
Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).
___________________________________________________
So, there was historically, from very early in the Church teachings on God being a Trinity of persons.
You can go online and read the rest at the link above, if you like, although it is in more scholarly language in this edition!
ADDENDUM: It also has explanations of the Trinity in both the Old and New Testaments further down in the article and in the traditions of the early Christians. Its pretty long and while it is a little scholarly, I am able to understand it so no one should have too much trouble with it.
EDITED to add a thought I hadn't thunk until later.
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