The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Clackclack]

My reference to 'organically' was merely concerning nitrate buildup, which is more likely in (over)fertilised fields.

 

[BlueMouse]

WARNING GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS

So, I lost the keet that has had the impacted crop twice now. I thought he was doing better, but when I checked on him after lunch he was lying on his side with his neck doubled back, and his head against his back, laboring for breath. In the time it took me to debate putting him down vs. administering vitamins in water, he was gone. I gathered up my gumption and did a autopsy. I want to learn from this. Even if what I learn is that I've been doing it all wrong, well, that will be a blow to my good intentions and my pride, but I will know better. I know that sometimes you inevitably lose chicks/keets, but the reality of that is much sadder than the factual understanding of it.




contents of crop. there doesn't seem to be anything here that would actually obstruct it. No foul odor.



entrails. I was immediately struck by two things, the disproportionate size of the gizzard. and the orange color of the liver. I have never seen a healthy liver that color. I don't know what it means though. there was still waste in the intestine as well.



Contents of gizzard. Nothing like a big wad of grass or anything. two things I did notice a) no real grit type objects. b) a lot of oat hulls. No foul odor. no obvious blockage.

I'm still not sure what happened to this chick. I don't know if the oat hulls blocked the gizzard, or if there was another cause. certainly it didn't eat something that would cause an obvious blockage. I would appreciate input from those of you who know more.

All the other chicks seem fine. their crops seem to empty and then refill. they are eating, drinking, and pooping. I did change them over to an unmedicated game bird starter (26% was what they had) last week (as soon as I could get out to the feed store) because I was having trouble getting the protien of my own feed (20%) high enough without access to fish meal or somesuch. I'm fermenting the starter. They get raw meat or or egg once a day. Before I got the game bird starter they got it twice a day. they have unpasturized ACV with the mother in their water. they have sod, they have a heat lamp. Do any of you see anything glaringly wrong there? If this was just user error I want to know so I don't kill any more keets.

 

[aoxa]

Eek... feel like I need more guidance and knowledge.
And am terrified to try it on my heritage chickens until I feel like I've gotten the hang of it... I can't afford to kill any.

That's why I thought I might start small and do one group of production layers.
I currently have 11 in that group.
I'm just not to confident I would know the difference between fermented and spoiled.
How often does the "liquid" need to be replenished?
How many days of "feed" do you ferment ahead?
Is it necessary to feed twice daily? I only feed in the mornings usually.

See... too many questions....

Am I overanalyzing this?

Oh you are way over thinking it.

I guarantee you will not kill them by fermenting.

Pretty much all of my birds were heritage.. or rare.. Except my Pennies (Red Sex Links), and a few mixes here and there.

I always made 4 days ahead. I rotated it. Oldest bucket being served first. In the winter it was made 2-3 days in advance. I had four buckets and some days I went through 1.5 buckets, where other days I went through just one.
You never need to change the water, but always add water when you add feed, and adjust daily if it swells too much, or add more feed if it is too watery.

If you only feed once a day feed in the evening. I'm assuming they are free ranged the rest of the day? It's better that they find all their own foraged goods first.. If they eat in the morning they will be more lazy. In my experience for sure. They sit around and preen and nap if fed in the morning. In the afternoon they will really get their forage on, but I think it's more beneficial to feed them at night.. That's only if you free range though, otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Also... what about the non-grain ingredients... I add nutribalancer, limestone, kelp, and sometimes fish meal and/or alfalfa meal.
I normally grind and mix a 50 lb batch in a old wheelbarrow about once a week.
Obviously I'd have to add the other ingredients a day at a time... could be a problem breaking it down to amounts that small.
What do others do who ferment?

Lots of people ferment garlic and herbs as well as a bunch of different grains. I just do starter (unmedicated) and BOSS right now. This will change. Still researching whole grains. I may be able to customize my own mix..

Believe me - you'll know if it's rotten. Smells totally different.

Now - I'm like you. I'd try it on the small group first so you can get a handle on it in a small-scale production before having to do the whole 9 yards! That way you can evaluate your process and figure out how to up-scale it for the larger group if you decide to continue.

The smell you're looking for is slightly sour - like fermented pickles or sauerkraut - and is actually quite pleasant with the grain/lactic acid smell. Assuming you're lacto-fermenting: A good rule of thumb is if you smell mold/yeast or alcohol, don't feed it. (It CAN often be fixed if you do get those smells, however, so don't toss it too quickly!)

If you send me a pm with questions I'll be glad to help with any questions as you're getting started! I'm leaving for a few hours, but I can try to catch up with you later this evening or early tomorrow morning if that's okay!

Yes it smells terrible. Mine went to smell like fish. The one in the basement.. It was really disgusting.

 

[aoxa]

WARNING GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS

So, I lost the keet that has had the impacted crop twice now. I thought he was doing better, but when I checked on him after lunch he was lying on his side with his neck doubled back, and his head against his back, laboring for breath. In the time it took me to debate putting him down vs. administering vitamins in water, he was gone. I gathered up my gumption and did a autopsy. I want to learn from this. Even if what I learn is that I've been doing it all wrong, well, that will be a blow to my good intentions and my pride, but I will know better. I know that sometimes you inevitably lose chicks/keets, but the reality of that is much sadder than the factual understanding of it.




contents of crop. there doesn't seem to be anything here that would actually obstruct it. No foul odor.



entrails. I was immediately struck by two things, the disproportionate size of the gizzard. and the orange color of the liver. I have never seen a healthy liver that color. I don't know what it means though. there was still waste in the intestine as well.



Contents of gizzard. Nothing like a big wad of grass or anything. two things I did notice a) no real grit type objects. b) a lot of oat hulls. No foul odor. no obvious blockage.

I'm still not sure what happened to this chick. I don't know if the oat hulls blocked the gizzard, or if there was another cause. certainly it didn't eat something that would cause an obvious blockage. I would appreciate input from those of you who know more.

All the other chicks seem fine. their crops seem to empty and then refill. they are eating, drinking, and pooping. I did change them over to an unmedicated game bird starter (26% was what they had) last week (as soon as I could get out to the feed store) because I was having trouble getting the protien of my own feed (20%) high enough without access to fish meal or somesuch. I'm fermenting the starter. They get raw meat or or egg once a day. Before I got the game bird starter they got it twice a day. they have unpasturized ACV with the mother in their water. they have sod, they have a heat lamp. Do any of you see anything glaringly wrong there? If this was just user error I want to know so I don't kill any more keets.

Bravo for doing the necropsy. I have no idea, but I always have to applaud those who are doing it for the first time.

 

[SallyinIndiana]

Non chicken question:
We have a nice sized front yard but not fenced in. I was wanting to put a grazing animal that could be on a stake and move the stake as needed. It would be nice not to have to mow and possibly even have meat in the fall from the animals. Is there a good grazing animal that does not mind being chained to a stake? Our yard is not big enough for a cow plus we don't really want that large of an animal. I was thinking about goats or sheep. Still I know very very little about either. So I thought I would ask for opinions on here as many of you have farm animals.

 

[RedRidge]

Oh you are way over thinking it.

...

If you only feed once a day feed in the evening. I'm assuming they are free ranged the rest of the day? It's better that they find all their own foraged goods first.. If they eat in the morning they will be more lazy. In my experience for sure. They sit around and preen and nap if fed in the morning. In the afternoon they will really get their forage on, but I think it's more beneficial to feed them at night.. That's only if you free range though, otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Yes!! I overthink everything!!!

Mine are let out in the morning, and I feed in the evening about an hour before dusk... I don't have to wait until dusk to round everyone up that way... they come willingly and quickly at super time, then I'm finished for the day... so this works easily for me.
I refresh water in the morning when the hen houses are empty, get any stray eggs that were layed, refresh any nest bedding that needs refreshing, etc Basically everything except feed. They hop out and are all out of my way for most of the other chores this way. If I fed in the morning too I don't think they'd ever leave me alone. LOL

I'm inclined to ferment my corn, peas and oats (grains), and then simply mix them with my premix after I take them out of the ferment liquid just prior to feeding.
I'm at least beginning to develop a plan in my mind.
I have too many management groups right now, so my brain is a little on overload, but I really appreciate all the previous posts on this topic as well as these recent ones. I have read them all and it's been very helpful.

Thanks!

 

[stonykill]

Non chicken question:
We have a nice sized front yard but not fenced in. I was wanting to put a grazing animal that could be on a stake and move the stake as needed. It would be nice not to have to mow and possibly even have meat in the fall from the animals. Is there a good grazing animal that does not mind being chained to a stake? Our yard is not big enough for a cow plus we don't really want that large of an animal. I was thinking about goats or sheep. Still I know very very little about either. So I thought I would ask for opinions on here as many of you have farm animals.

I did that once with the animal you don't want. I kept a steer on a stake and collar in the yard.

 

[RedRidge]

Non chicken question:
We have a nice sized front yard but not fenced in. I was wanting to put a grazing animal that could be on a stake and move the stake as needed. It would be nice not to have to mow and possibly even have meat in the fall from the animals. Is there a good grazing animal that does not mind being chained to a stake? Our yard is not big enough for a cow plus we don't really want that large of an animal. I was thinking about goats or sheep. Still I know very very little about either. So I thought I would ask for opinions on here as many of you have farm animals.

Hmmm... I really hate to touch this subject as I am unfamiliar with staking any animal.... and I would think doing it in a front yard for all to see could get some "organizations" to jump down your throat real quick if you know what I mean....
Around here, just having a dog staked is enough to create a stir.

As a suggestion, why don't you consider electronetting... it's inexpensive, easy to move around... check out the Kencove webpage

 

[SallyinIndiana]

Quote: Did it work out ok or were there issues that might apply to smaller animals. I gave the cow thing a lot of thought But ultimately, it comes down to we just don't have a way to handle such a large animal.

Quote: Really we aren't supposed to chain an animal to a stake now? I'm against mistreating animals things like dog or rooster fights for sure, but restraining an animal by attaching it to a stake, I never that that was cruel. To me it is not that different from locking them into a pen, other than cost.

Thanks for the info on the electric fence.

 

[aoxa]

I'm on FB and there is a discussion about how raw meat should not be fed to chickens. Really? Are my birds the only ones who hunt and devour their uncooked victim? I don't understand..

I do understand not feeding chickens raw chicken from the store. Who knows what those birds have on them, but if you have a bird you processed yourself, and have scraps from said processing, what is so terrible about feeding it back?