Quote: Great to hear you're taking a strong stance on the issue of violent roosters. Since there are often kids of under five years running around the yard, I can't tolerate any bad roosters either. I take in all sorts of roosters of all ages and breeds, purebred or mixed, so watch attitude closely just like you'd watch your kid around a strange dog. Very quickly I've noticed signs in their overall body language and behaviour that show a bad attitude, and I cull for those, not that I've had to in a long time now. Being mean to hens is always linked to a certain latent willingness to attack humans too, in my experience.
Never trust that any breed is nice or nasty according to popular opinion; all it takes is one breeder you buy off who has gotten and bred on a nasty bird, and there you go, this 'calm' and 'friendly' breed is about to get tarnished because someone who doesn't cull for violent attitudes has developed a vicious strain of a great breed. Strain/recent ancestry is far more important than the actual breed. I found this demonstrated when I had to cage my chooks for any reason; some showed tendencies to bully if caged so I culled for that too. My flock can now tolerate being caged as well as free ranging peacefully. I still cage them for random days sometimes to check the latest generations for any tendencies to turn nasty if caged. Some birds will just get straight to it like there is nothing else to do.
Quote: Since there's no guarantee of them being uninfected by some of the worse diseases, you could have contaminated ground for a year or more, or it could be fine now; really all depends on the disease you're talking about. That's why I'm constant with the garlic, to help kill all nasty stuff before it takes a hold, because by the time they've shown signs of illness, it can be too late to start treating. Proactive gentle natural medication is what I use (and of course recommend) because it's worked for me, even when bringing in sick birds from elsewhere.
Quote:
Quote: I was initially until I decided to breed more to eat, lol. You can use anything, a blender, a mincer, a crusher, etc, whatever works. I would add honey/lemon juice into the garlic if minced in a machine to stop it going green (due to the oxidizing sulfur as far as I know). I would buy the garlic from produce stores or big shops in the grocery section. It was $1.50 a kilo here, though it seems more expensive over there where you guys are. Shame, that. Strange, too.
I have an average steady flock of a minimum of 50 and let it fluctuate upwards of 200, but generally under, for feeding my family; of course, though, about half that number are always chicks and the adult non-keepers are getting culled to eat before those chicks grow up, so it's not like I have 200 adult birds running around at any time, frequently around 100.
Quote: @bruceh: True that what is considered humane and considerate of the animal's health and welfare is cruel and saddening. Factory and industry standards... There's a reason their birds/eggs taste so bad.
However I think you will find you cannot rehab a bird back to 100% health once it has been raised in a lacking environment. I have also experimented (though not to that extent), and have gotten them to great health, but never quite the same as those stock raised in the best manner. The birds have physically built their current organs, bones, and other structures from that bad feed, and cannot just replace their body as soon as they're on good feed. They overexerted themselves and drained themselves to gain the healthiest adult state they could despite their rearing conditions and feed, and that takes a lot out of them. Specifically, it takes years off their lives. While they can replace most of these cells in my experience they will never catch up to total health. They were built of bad feed, and you are what you eat. They will live shorter lives, be more prone to illness and all sorts of problems, and not 'buck up' when struck like their healthier counterparts... If my experience holds true. Bad feed is damage that does not just go away once they're onto good feed. Not to condemn you for your experiment, though.
Quote: Whoever's giving you flack should possibly be directing that at the industries that employ and facilitate those methods and standards of poultry 'care' rather than the farmers who follow what they are taught is right. You haven't done anything that wasn't by the book, lol! I read the industry published books to see what their standards and methods are and it's scary, wasteful and ineffective stuff. Man made medications don't tend to confer actual immunity, it's more often a case of the toughest birds surviving despite them, not because of them. In my opinion and experience, of course. I'm not a factory owner either.
Quote: Yes, they would, for the most part, because they don't believe it's wrong. Most cruelty really does seem to be ignorance in action. I am following with great interest the growing outback free range organic industry in Australia; I have never, ever seen mass-kept birds being so well treated. Most of these new farmers were originally old school types who used chemicals for everything, who have realized the unsustainability of that. By FAR the healthiest mass kept birds I have ever seen. No antibiotics, no medicated crumble, no vaccinations, totally blasting out of the water the often repeated 'fact' that these are needed for industrial survival. Flocks of thousands each, happy, healthy. Nowhere near the losses of their non organic comrades. I reckon it's the way of the future there.
Quote: Juliette de Bairacli Levy's The Complete Herbal Handbook For Farm And Stable. She researched many different culture's methods of naturally healing their people and animals, and recorded that in this book and her other books. She did get a bit keen on passing on that ancient lore as her own/taking all credit like she'd discovered it rather than just collected and passed it on, and got a bit boastful, and of course made a few mistakes (asbestos mats...) but the info in that book has saved my own life and my animal's lives. Definitely worth getting, the herbs and remedies she mentions in that book cover dogs, cattle, horses, chooks, sheep, etc, too.
Quote: Thanks Leahs Mom for the link. Will check it out. Nobody's knowledge will ever be complete, whether or not they study for their lifetime or get PhDs and diplomas and all manner of certificates in it. I know the more I know, the more I know how much I'll never know! NEVER too much learning! Also the world's changing, new info will always need to be found and applied, our ancestors never had to deal with what we are living (and dying) with.
Quote: Just that you too have realized how useful chickens are, and the necessity for keeping them healthy to benefit in turn.
I don't wonder about others too much, I listen to what they tell me about themselves, so if they're truthful I know something, and if they're liars I know nothing. lol. Obviously I try to associate with honest people to avoid the pitfalls in that philosophy...
Quote: These are incredibly nasty things, the adult females can kill within a few hours of being on a host, but more often take a few days. They always kill their host unless removed. Also unless the host is naturally immune, as my feral dog/dingo is. They are a one way ticket to death, and they kill humans too.
Quote: Yeah, same with some turkeys. In my opinion these huge commercial breeders that practice artificial insemination as a rule are responsible for breeding chooks and other animals whose sexual instinct for the opposite gender of their own species has now been replaced by instinct for mating with humans. A lot of these breeders don't even need to practice AI but do anyway. Saves keeping males or mixing genders. This is why so many commercial breed layers in Australia are sexually attracted to humans; the hens squat for people and the roosters try to mate with legs and hands, then end up attacking when it doesn't work. I have culled far more roosters for sexual interest in humans than I have for violence! All of them from Isabrown or Leghorn genetics who came from commercial breeders. It breeds true for many generations after the birds are being raised naturally. Sometimes these chooks are seemingly extra tame; actually that's deceptive, they're calm because they view you as a mate. They will also become violent in due course because to them you're just another chook... Or maybe they're a human. They don't know, lol.
I don't keep male leghorn types anymore, because every single one I got, no matter where I got it from, possessed too many faults of attitude and/or genetics and/or was sexually interested in humans. It's not the breed, it's the big commercial breeders who produce the vast majority of these breeds around here. I worry about the huge incidences of AI being used as a matter of course for horses, cattle, sheep etc... Many of the big commercial breeders of cattle use AI like there is no alternative. Mistaken economy!
Never trust that any breed is nice or nasty according to popular opinion; all it takes is one breeder you buy off who has gotten and bred on a nasty bird, and there you go, this 'calm' and 'friendly' breed is about to get tarnished because someone who doesn't cull for violent attitudes has developed a vicious strain of a great breed. Strain/recent ancestry is far more important than the actual breed. I found this demonstrated when I had to cage my chooks for any reason; some showed tendencies to bully if caged so I culled for that too. My flock can now tolerate being caged as well as free ranging peacefully. I still cage them for random days sometimes to check the latest generations for any tendencies to turn nasty if caged. Some birds will just get straight to it like there is nothing else to do.
Quote: Since there's no guarantee of them being uninfected by some of the worse diseases, you could have contaminated ground for a year or more, or it could be fine now; really all depends on the disease you're talking about. That's why I'm constant with the garlic, to help kill all nasty stuff before it takes a hold, because by the time they've shown signs of illness, it can be too late to start treating. Proactive gentle natural medication is what I use (and of course recommend) because it's worked for me, even when bringing in sick birds from elsewhere.
Quote:
Quote: I was initially until I decided to breed more to eat, lol. You can use anything, a blender, a mincer, a crusher, etc, whatever works. I would add honey/lemon juice into the garlic if minced in a machine to stop it going green (due to the oxidizing sulfur as far as I know). I would buy the garlic from produce stores or big shops in the grocery section. It was $1.50 a kilo here, though it seems more expensive over there where you guys are. Shame, that. Strange, too.
I have an average steady flock of a minimum of 50 and let it fluctuate upwards of 200, but generally under, for feeding my family; of course, though, about half that number are always chicks and the adult non-keepers are getting culled to eat before those chicks grow up, so it's not like I have 200 adult birds running around at any time, frequently around 100.
Quote: @bruceh: True that what is considered humane and considerate of the animal's health and welfare is cruel and saddening. Factory and industry standards... There's a reason their birds/eggs taste so bad.
However I think you will find you cannot rehab a bird back to 100% health once it has been raised in a lacking environment. I have also experimented (though not to that extent), and have gotten them to great health, but never quite the same as those stock raised in the best manner. The birds have physically built their current organs, bones, and other structures from that bad feed, and cannot just replace their body as soon as they're on good feed. They overexerted themselves and drained themselves to gain the healthiest adult state they could despite their rearing conditions and feed, and that takes a lot out of them. Specifically, it takes years off their lives. While they can replace most of these cells in my experience they will never catch up to total health. They were built of bad feed, and you are what you eat. They will live shorter lives, be more prone to illness and all sorts of problems, and not 'buck up' when struck like their healthier counterparts... If my experience holds true. Bad feed is damage that does not just go away once they're onto good feed. Not to condemn you for your experiment, though.
Quote: Whoever's giving you flack should possibly be directing that at the industries that employ and facilitate those methods and standards of poultry 'care' rather than the farmers who follow what they are taught is right. You haven't done anything that wasn't by the book, lol! I read the industry published books to see what their standards and methods are and it's scary, wasteful and ineffective stuff. Man made medications don't tend to confer actual immunity, it's more often a case of the toughest birds surviving despite them, not because of them. In my opinion and experience, of course. I'm not a factory owner either.
Quote: Yes, they would, for the most part, because they don't believe it's wrong. Most cruelty really does seem to be ignorance in action. I am following with great interest the growing outback free range organic industry in Australia; I have never, ever seen mass-kept birds being so well treated. Most of these new farmers were originally old school types who used chemicals for everything, who have realized the unsustainability of that. By FAR the healthiest mass kept birds I have ever seen. No antibiotics, no medicated crumble, no vaccinations, totally blasting out of the water the often repeated 'fact' that these are needed for industrial survival. Flocks of thousands each, happy, healthy. Nowhere near the losses of their non organic comrades. I reckon it's the way of the future there.
Quote: Juliette de Bairacli Levy's The Complete Herbal Handbook For Farm And Stable. She researched many different culture's methods of naturally healing their people and animals, and recorded that in this book and her other books. She did get a bit keen on passing on that ancient lore as her own/taking all credit like she'd discovered it rather than just collected and passed it on, and got a bit boastful, and of course made a few mistakes (asbestos mats...) but the info in that book has saved my own life and my animal's lives. Definitely worth getting, the herbs and remedies she mentions in that book cover dogs, cattle, horses, chooks, sheep, etc, too.
Quote: Thanks Leahs Mom for the link. Will check it out. Nobody's knowledge will ever be complete, whether or not they study for their lifetime or get PhDs and diplomas and all manner of certificates in it. I know the more I know, the more I know how much I'll never know! NEVER too much learning! Also the world's changing, new info will always need to be found and applied, our ancestors never had to deal with what we are living (and dying) with.
Quote: Just that you too have realized how useful chickens are, and the necessity for keeping them healthy to benefit in turn.
I don't wonder about others too much, I listen to what they tell me about themselves, so if they're truthful I know something, and if they're liars I know nothing. lol. Obviously I try to associate with honest people to avoid the pitfalls in that philosophy...Quote: These are incredibly nasty things, the adult females can kill within a few hours of being on a host, but more often take a few days. They always kill their host unless removed. Also unless the host is naturally immune, as my feral dog/dingo is. They are a one way ticket to death, and they kill humans too.
Quote: Yeah, same with some turkeys. In my opinion these huge commercial breeders that practice artificial insemination as a rule are responsible for breeding chooks and other animals whose sexual instinct for the opposite gender of their own species has now been replaced by instinct for mating with humans. A lot of these breeders don't even need to practice AI but do anyway. Saves keeping males or mixing genders. This is why so many commercial breed layers in Australia are sexually attracted to humans; the hens squat for people and the roosters try to mate with legs and hands, then end up attacking when it doesn't work. I have culled far more roosters for sexual interest in humans than I have for violence! All of them from Isabrown or Leghorn genetics who came from commercial breeders. It breeds true for many generations after the birds are being raised naturally. Sometimes these chooks are seemingly extra tame; actually that's deceptive, they're calm because they view you as a mate. They will also become violent in due course because to them you're just another chook... Or maybe they're a human. They don't know, lol.
I don't keep male leghorn types anymore, because every single one I got, no matter where I got it from, possessed too many faults of attitude and/or genetics and/or was sexually interested in humans. It's not the breed, it's the big commercial breeders who produce the vast majority of these breeds around here. I worry about the huge incidences of AI being used as a matter of course for horses, cattle, sheep etc... Many of the big commercial breeders of cattle use AI like there is no alternative. Mistaken economy!
