The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Kassaundra]

Culling for health is a very practical solution, and my go to solution for my flock.

 

[Shan30]

Thank you both. There are definitely some very opinionated folks out there.

I'm not sure I would could put our flock into a specific category. We do sell eggs, but only because we could never eat that many. We breed black/blue Ameraucanas, White Chanteclers, Silkies and next year, Silver Laced Polish. Most of the results have been gifts for friends starting their own flocks and a few dozen eggs were given to elementary schools for hatching. Next year I will probably start selling more chicks to help pay for the new barn hahaha!

We want to get serious about breeding but also thinking of starting to try for a baby in the spring so we will see what the future holds. There are many birds that have no name but I do know who they are as individuals in the group and there are others yet that run up on to the deck to get carried inside each night, have names and know to beg for treats at the gate to the veggie garden.

I guess what we have is something along the lines of a hobby flock. If such a thing exists...

 

[Turk Raphael]

Oddly enough they do not. She's definitely low on the pecking order but our flock coexist pretty nicely. We just removed the 10 cockerels the same age as her and even with those boys in there we really didn't have issues with behaviour.

I will investigate further tonight and make a decision based on her condition. Unfortunately hubby will be gone hunting for a week and I am working side jobs all weekend and then in another wedding next weekend so will be mostly taking care of the critters at night.

If I can get her cleaned up this time I fear that this will only happen repetitively and laying may kill her. So as much as I know some people will think badly of me for it, I may cull her. I don't want to start treating her, not be able to do so often enough and end up making her suffer. It will all depend on how bad the infection looks under there. Trust me I go to some extreme lengths frequently to save animals but I don't want to prolong suffering if the end result appears to be inevitable.

You're the one who sees your birds everyday and knows best what conditions she can deal with comfortably. I'ts a sign of good husbandry skills to know when to draw the line.

Turk

 

[Lacy Blues]

I can whip up a new batch of nustock tonight. Unfortunately working a side job after work and will be super late.

The reason I questioned culling with this girl is that she has had a down turned tail since she feathered out. She's about 5-1/2 months old and has been thoroughly inspected many times looking for a cause and other than always having a messy bum, she's had no injuries or anything that would cause it. The only thing I can figure is that it's either genetic or a deformity. I've been wondering what will happen when she starts to lay, whether her body shape will allow for it.

I did check a few others while I was at it and everyone looks great. I just didn't have the time to check 40 birds last night.

Never thought about the salt and vinegar hurting, was just thinking of cleaning the wound and had read about doing this for fly strike. Still wondering if a good soak might not help clean her up a bit.

Luckily I have a confinement area that right in the coop so whenever a bird is in there they do not lose their position in the flock and it seems less stressful for everyone when they can stay in the coop.

Perhaps you can keep her tail trimmed so it doesn't hang down over her vent? You would only have to do it once a year after she reaches her adult plumage. I'm all for culling for health reasons too so don't let what I say make you think I'm getting on you or think otherwise of you for your choice. If you're concerned about her ability to lay eggs freely, you can make an examination of her skeletal structure and abdominal capacity. This will let you know a lot. If you're familiar with the 4H poultry examination guidelines, they are very good for letting you feel what's happening with her bones without you seeing them.

Leahs mom, no need for a fecal test because the last poop I saw was that wormy - 5 or 6 separate round worms, quite large. No doubt in my mind at all. And that has to be a pretty bad infestation for that many to be in one poop.

I have been researching using true gum turpentine (that is pure, distilled , not from petroleuom) but am uncertain about that dosing.

I do think some slowing down due to fall is likely, and to the oncoming molting, but feed decrease?

Maybe the soap?

 

[Leahs Mom]

The only soap that I know of that is used for worming is the shacklee basic h. But I do remember reading that the women used to give the chickens the dish water in the "old days". The kind of soap needs to have surfactants. Here's some info from a former post:

Not all soap works, but for sure the Shaklee's basic H soap can be used to deworm and should be much easier on the system than the chemical wormers. I had first read about it in Joel Salatin's books. Cattlemen use it quite frequently and I believe it is still approved for use on organic farms too.

Some basic H info: (Note under wetting agent - cutting the protective coating on insects...I believe it is the surfactants that cause that.)
http://lindholm.myshaklee.com/us/en/about_farmranch_basic_h.html

I have a bottle in my chicken first-aid stuff but have never used it yet.

Here is the info from Joel Salatin's Book on the basic H as they used it for cattle:



Quote:
Copyright Material quoted for educational purposes only.
Salad Bar Beef by Joel Salatin
Pages 164-166
Copyright 1995 by Joel Salatin












More info on surfactants:
Quote:

http://www.shaklee.com/us/en/products.php?sku=00015

 

[Kassaundra]

I think any soap can work to disrupt the exterior of the parasites making them vulnerable to the digestive fluids. I think basic H is mostly used b/c of it being thought of as a more "natural" product.

The other thing I have seen repeated is grapefruit seed extract. The soap will make the water taste bitter and if they have access to untreated water may chose it over the treated water, however by all reports the GSE doesn't affect the water taste like that.

I do not know for certain the effectiveness of either product, but really like that if they do work the parasites can't develop immunity to them, so no chance of making a "super parasite"

 

[Leahs Mom]

So far I've never wormed my birds and haven't seen any symptoms that would make me do so. All this worm talk has me thinking I may take a stool sample in just because I'm curious.

I'm a firm believer in not routinely worming. But I'd be very interested to see if there is anything there when I don't see any symptoms. For my personal education.

 

[Lacy Blues]

That was very interesting. Thanks for sharing. The article did say that the cows ate less while being treated... I imagine chickens would too? It sounds like a good choice for worming. I may order some and worm all my birds before winter sets in. They haven't been wormed in forever and I don't see wormy poops but the dull brittle coat on the cattle changing dramatically sparked something in my head. A lot of my birds have had brittle feathers in the past and I was thinking it was genetic and made a special mating this past spring of birds that had really nice feather condition. Maybe they need to be wormed. I guess I can try it and see if they change dramatically.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I think any soap can work to disrupt the exterior of the parasites making them vulnerable to the digestive fluids. I think basic H is mostly used b/c of it being thought of as a more "natural" product.

The other thing I have seen repeated is grapefruit seed extract. The soap will make the water taste bitter and if they have access to untreated water may chose it over the treated water, however by all reports the GSE doesn't affect the water taste like that.

I do not know for certain the effectiveness of either product, but really like that if they do work the parasites can't develop immunity to them, so no chance of making a "super parasite"

Kassaundra, do you know the dosage for the GSE? I have some of that already and may try it.

I don't believe in routine worming either, obviously, as I've never done it, but if there is something I can use that is not a poison, I may do it at the end of summers as the chickens probably eat flies and whatnot during the summer and don't flies carry worm eggs?

 

[LindaB220]

I do think soaking would be good. The article that lala posted talked about the soaking too. I'd just use a bucket of warm water w/epsom salt. That should soften things up some and then you'll have to remove the maggots. One thing to really look at well - have they gone up into the vent. If they have, it can be almost impossible to take care of the whole infestation.

From your anatomy description and her age, I think I'd also question if she will be able to lay freely. And it does sound like you've had some problems with her over time...she's so young...
I'd probably be thinking the same thing as you about culling even though I always hold out hope.

x2 Sorry