The Plymouth Rock Breeders thread

[Beekissed]

You're probably right Jill, and I'm just not knowledgeable enough to have discerned it. I saw that he mentioned it being "typical of the breed", but then it was followed by info about differences btwn hatchery stock vs other stock, and he called the green a "minor flaw" so... I am still confused as to whether it's a breeding defect/undesireable trait or what. If I knew more about the topic I probably would've had an easier time understanding. But that's ok. I'm sure I'll figure it all out at some point when I learn more about breed standards etc.
-- Oh- there are posts here that aren't about breeding? Excellent. I will check it out. I'm sure I'll learn a lot about the breed. Thanks for letting me know.
-- Yes, she definitely made me love barred rocks. She's super cool.

Thanks again. Take care.

Broodymama, here's a thread I think you'll really like and it's a little more informal when it comes to breeding Barred Rocks...sometimes the lingo about breeding in this thread can be daunting, especially when they get into all the genetic codes for this or that color or feathering....makes my eyes roll back in my head.

Great folks and love to talk about the breed! https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/273471/plymouth-rock-thread

 

[BroodyMama2]

Thank you Bee! I appreciate you taking the time to let me know. <3 I'll check it out. I realized (too late) that you can't just jump in a thread and ask anything just because it contains the name of your breed. LOL I'll get my sea legs eventually.

 

[Beekissed]

YW! So glad to meet another Rock lover on the forum....they are an addictive breed and my favorite of all breeds, though my fave variety are the White Rocks. When you get around to doing more with the breed, these folks here are the go to crowd for how to do it, so keep this thread in mind for future reference. Fred is my breeding mentor and I've learned so much from him, not to mention got my start in breeding due to his help, along with Mr. Weaver.

 

[Fred's Hens]

We try very hard here to stay focused on the Plymouth Rock, all varieties, and breeding them in particular. The scope is pretty broad and we're not the frowning, sober type of folks at all. We're just chicken folks who love chicks, birds on green grass, the skill of a broody, and all the other things that make chickens in generally so interesting.

With that said, we're very open and welcoming to new comers to the breed and searchers for a more indepth approach to Standard bred, high quality poultry. We figure there are a zillion other threads that deal with generic birds, generic husbandry issues, etc. BYC is dominated by a certain "backyarder" approach and that is fine, as that is the primary focus of this webiste. We get all that.

But it is nice to have a thread where proper terminology is used (no "roos" here), there's no dumbing down and more elements of the breed Standard, as published in the Standard of Perfection is respected. It's not snooty as much as respectful and mature, that's the hope anyhow.

 

[Fred's Hens]

BroodyMama2

Black in many breeds is merely called black. In the Rhode Island Red, for example, the black is often a very dark, beetle green which you can see easily in the tail feathers of the male. Males strut shiny green tail feathers. The females tail feathers appear black. Getting black in the right places, but avoiding black in all the WRONG places is an everlasting challenge in the Reds, believe you me.

The black in the Barred Rock should be black. Just black. However, it is not uncommon to see beetle green casts when the feather is in the sunlight. Sometimes the color of the sheen cast is purple as well. In my experience, this cast of green or purple is almost always more evident in the hatchery stock. There are several reasons. First, hatcheries "juice up" their birds with higher laying strains. This is to maintain profitability in their flocks. They're not breeding to the Standard, only cranking out as many birds as they can for profit margin sake. Spiking the birds by "hiding" Leghorn blood or production red blood is a good way to "juice up" the egg output. Of course, the type of the Rock suffers horribly and the meat production does as well. All hatcheries mostly want is eggs, eggs, and more eggs, as fast as possible. Truth be told, the same thing could be said of backyarders. Eggs, eggs, eggs. As long as the birds "represent" the generic, sort of blurry look of the breed they sell them as, then everyone's happy.

Except me.

If I want 300 eggs per year, I'm not going to ask that of a true bred, honest to goodness Plymouth Rock. The birds are not supposed to lay that many eggs. They're Rocks. They have a different role in life. Good egg layers, yes. 300 eggs a year? no way. If I want that? I'd go get a red sex link or a Mediterrean breed.

I don't believe in relativism where everyone gets to decide what's right and wrong. The beauty of the written breed Standard is that it is objective enough to apply to everyone in common. I like that.

The tigher you get the barring, the cleaner the barring, the sharper the barring, the far less likely that you'll have wide bands of black casting off shades of purple or green. The primary reason the hatchery stock tends to cast off colors in the black is simply that the bird is poorly bred and the black portion of the feather are too wide and too fuzzy. The white portion is also not crisp enough and the number of alternate bars is simply too few. To achieve sharp barring, the genes must control the color in feathering, with crisp stops and starts.

 

[Fentress]

She's an amazing old gal, isn't she?  Look at her back line and heart girth!!!!  Thanks for the smile this brought to me tonight.  Thanks for sharing Jill. 

You can see the 50/50 birds, which were a cross I did between a GS bird and a Maine line bird.  The Maine line having just undergone a cross themselves to the White Rock to gain size and type.  These 50/50 birds were a project generation.  Upon them, we built the 75 bird by taking them back under a GS male.

What Jill has done, with my 100% support and encouragement, was to take them under a Guy Roy male.  This was to tighten the feathering, if possible but mostly to clean up the barring which gets blurred whenever you introduce the White Rock in your program.  This is a very, very common outcross and it takes roughly 3-4 generations to find your way back home.   In my opinion, outcrossing to a White Rock is not really an outcross at all because the White Rock is most often merely a Barred Rock with the barring smothered under White anyhow.  The White Rock was originally a sport off the Barred, with the Barreds being the original Rock, of course.

It isn't surprising to see the occasional streak of black, even weak black barring, on the feather of our White Rocks from time to time, here and there.  It is extremely rare to find a White Rock without at least two or three stray black streaked feathers or tick peppering.   

Are there WR lines that develop faster than your typical BR? Could that be a credible objective for a cross? Not, that I am in the position to do that, at present, but I am curious about how best to increase productivity. I am assuming that the Delaware would be a candidate as well, but it might be easier to find a good WR. Thanks.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Are there WR lines that develop faster than your typical BR? Could that be a credible objective for a cross? Not, that I am in the position to do that, at present, but I am curious about how best to increase productivity. I am assuming that the Delaware would be a candidate as well, but it might be easier to find a good WR. Thanks.

I do Whites and Barred, but have close friends who do Columbian and Silver Penciled. All are slow. All are slow Plymouth Rocks.

The Deleware is a hybrid, as you know, using a Barred Rock and a New Hampshire. The Hamps are quick, but I do not know whether most of the Dels bred to standard inherit that increase in development. While a bit off topic perhaps, helping maturity rates in Rocks is an uphill climb. Joe Eminheiser would be the man to have an off thread conversation with about this breeding subject. Dr Joe knows his stuff.

The CX commerical broiler strains might give you the best jump if you could figure out how to use the genetics the commerical world unlocked to create those 9 to 10 week wonders. As I understand it, they found an unsatiable appetite gene which explains the constant feeding.

It is my opinion that any project like this will take you far "off type" and would mean a long, 5 year, slogging, uphill climb. Pushing for faster development can be done through just plain old selection. Keeping of meticulous records and choosing for faster feathering, faster weight gain and early maturity. Record keeping of individual birds, weekly weighing, etc, would be key. I'm not so slavish about all that, but I do know a slow bird when I see it and generally cull those with slow traits.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I do Whites and Barred, but have close friends who do Columbian and Silver Penciled. All are slow. All are slow Plymouth Rocks.

Really? I am under the assumption that the whites would mature a bit faster. Now that you have both varieties side by side your saying this is not the case or that you don't maintain weight records and any difference is negligible?

I've never dealt with whites but it stands to a semblance of reason that the solid color would better allow breeders over the generations to maintain/achieve a good utility bird.

I have dealt with a side project of Joe E's birds and they can get huge. It was something to see an essentially Andalusian looking cock with hulk size and muscle mass. Cobb cornishX to Barred being three generations back and sire being Andalusion. I'm still bummed I lost those birds due to moving. I had a pullet result that had real promise, lacked brassy, fair type (in perspective) and the tail was coming down. She was a beauty if keeping the goal of project in mind.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Raised three different strains of White Rocks the last two years. I can tell you that none are "speedy". I've narrowed my preference to one particular strain as the dominant blend. Don't mind a touch of the other two strains, but I want my personal White Rocks to be silver and to be good natured and have substance.

Quick didn't apply to any of the strains. Hatchery so-called Whites are quicker to lay. But you'll get a teeny, pinched up bird. It's all what you want I reckon. Again, if I want lots of eggs in a hurry? I'm just gonna buy a box of red sex links and ta da.


I'd love to try some of Dr Joe Em's Blue Rocks when he gets settled in and further down the road with them. Sorry to hear of your loss, Egg head jr, but I know it was a trying time. Here's to better times moving forward.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Don't quote me but I believe Joe's scraped the Andalusion side project for now and is concentrating on the Blue line he'd obtained to get to standard before introducing the Mediterranean lacing again. You've seen the photos of that progress I'm sure. By the few birds he's uploaded photos of on BYC it's looking good for type.

The Blue really is my first choice of Variety. Got the Penciled now (believe it or not my 4th choice variety) and am rolling up shirt sleeves for years of work on them. They sure need it from what I'm seeing this first summer but have promise and still a pretty bird.