The Rhodebar thread!

[RedRidge]

Makomd,
I'm a newbie to Rhodebars, so please explain why the synthesized rhodebar is really a Rhodebar and not an autosexed RIR x barred rock.
Or am I just dealing with semantics here?
A rhodebar isn't really a rhodebar (in my opinion) unless it is derived from Brussbars and RIR... is this not true?\
You can create something that looks and acts like a Rhodebar, but if it doesn't have Brussbar is it truly a Rhodebar?
And if it is, I would think that genetically I would want to know if I was buying exactly what genetics I was purchasing... a synthezied Rhodebar, or a true Rhodebar.

All this said... I could be totally off in my comments here.
I am really trying to learn more about the genetics of this breed.
I feel very fortunate to have some excellent HRIR (I have Underwood RC, 20 of them), and 7 Rhodebar (6 cockerels, and 1 pullet).
My goal is not to question those with experience but to learn.
Thanks Tim, Nic and everyone else for contributing.

As an aside... I have been working on trying to understand the Wheaten also.
I suspect what he meant by the question above was to "identify" the wheaten...?

Thanks for everyone's input.
I'm still developing a plan for how I will breed and cull this first season. Crossing HRIR with the RB is obvious, but I'm too anal to not have a plan for the several years beyond that... and do so while still maintaining my HRIR line.

 

[melroseladi]

There is some discrepancy about the actual origin of the Rhodebar. I am of the personal opinion that several, if not many, people were working on developing the Rhodebar during the same time frame, not to mention people that may not have wanted to disclose the actual breeding method they used to develop their line of Rhodebar.

According to Britanic Rare Breeds:

The Rhodebar was developed by several parties at around the same period prior to 1950. It is possible existing birds in the UK originate from a Mr B. De. H. Pickard from Storrington in Sussex who used Barred Plymouth Rock, an auto-sexable American breed crossed with Rhode Island Red. Mr Pickard gained standardisation from the Poultry Club of Great Britain in October 1952.

http://www.britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedinfo/chicken_rhodebar.php

So for me if the Rhodebars meet the standards then they are Rhodebars regardless if they had their start from BPR or Brussbars. If however, in my opinion, the Rhodebar does not meet the standards, such as egg color, auto-sexing, etc., then they are just look-a-likes and not the real deal.

Penny

 

[RedRidge]

There is some discrepancy about the actual origin of the Rhodebar. I am of the personal opinion that several, if not many, people were working on developing the Rhodebar during the same time frame, not to mention people that may not have wanted to disclose the actual breeding method they used to develop their line of Rhodebar.

According to Britanic Rare Breeds:

The Rhodebar was developed by several parties at around the same period prior to 1950. It is possible existing birds in the UK originate from a Mr B. De. H. Pickard from Storrington in Sussex who used Barred Plymouth Rock, an auto-sexable American breed crossed with Rhode Island Red. Mr Pickard gained standardisation from the Poultry Club of Great Britain in October 1952.

http://www.britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedinfo/chicken_rhodebar.php

So for me if the Rhodebars meet the standards then they are Rhodebars regardless if they had their start from BPR or Brussbars. If however, in my opinion, the Rhodebar does not meet the standards, such as egg color, auto-sexing, etc., then they are just look-a-likes and not the real deal.

Penny

Thanks so much Penny.
This is good to know.
And the very reason I brought it up. I had no idea that was a possibility.
I sure hope we can get some good quality RB going here in the US... maybe establish or adopt a standard.
Thanks for the excellent post.
Anyone else want to weigh in?
I'm guessing I opened a little can of worms now that I think about it because I'm sure some people have opinions on this matter which don't correspond. But the point was not to cause a stir, but to discuss this so that we can all develop a goal which we all agree upon to take the breed forward.
I am hoping everyone else will weigh in with their opinions without fear of reprisal... no criticism allowed.
We need to evaluate this from everyone's goals and opinions.
Just my opinion... of course.

 

[melroseladi]

Sheri I think which ever was used was done so to add the barring gene to the RIR to work towards an auto-sexing RIR. Also remember that most likely the Reds that were used to create the Rhodebar was not of the same caliber and quality that HRIR are. I think, from the pics I have seen of Rhodebars, for the most part people breeding Rhodebars are using utility Reds, hatchery reds, production reds, or whatever, and not using the lines of HRIR that you are familiar with. I do see several people on this thread that really want to improve the Rhodebars and plan on using good quality Reds to do so.

I know I can look at my cockerel and see that he was not created using a high quality line of Reds. He did not hatch out "yellow" which some seem to be getting in their hatches. He does have a decent amount of red in his coloring, not as much as I would like but more red then some of the cockerels I have seen. He has a nice flat back, though not as wide or long as I would like. And his tail, well points to the sky which is not what I want. BUT these things give me something to improve on which is what I really want to do.

Penny

 

[SewChaos]

After setting three different batches of eggs, I've managed to hatch all cockerals. I'm taking a break from the breed for a bit and have three cockerals to rehome. They all hatched from brown eggs. The oldest - pictured - is about 18 weeks. the other two are just under a week old and 14 weeks old. I've never shipped birds, so local only. PM me if you're interested.

 

[tadkerson]

If people want a show quality bird, then go with show quality parents. If a person wants an auto-sexing egg layer use the best egg laying parents. It all depends on what a person wants in the bird.

Genetics 101

The rhodebar is genetically wheaten at the E locus, gold at the silver locus, carries the barring gene, the columbian gene and has yellow skin. Wheaten chicks have a yellowish/white down with some occasionally having back markings.

The brussbar was wild type at the E locus, gold at the silver locus and did not carry the columbian gene.

If a person is hatching rhodebar chicks and the down has heavy back markings ( chipmunk) - the chicks are not wheaten.


Tim

 

[nicalandia]

True AutoSexing Rhodebars are wildtype at the e locus Tim.

we have done this in the past tim. and you know eWh/eWh(homozygous) B/B cant be autosexed, simple as that, they can not be autosexed. no Barred Columbian Wheaten bird can be autosex at hatch...

True autosexing birds should be based on wildtype, eb brown, or even ER but not wheate...

but.... ewh/e+ can look very much wildtype or almost wheaten and these birds can be Autosexed..

 

[tadkerson]

Genetics 101

1. The best auto-sexing breeds use the wild type allele but the wheaten allele can be used to auto-sex chicks.

2. One barring gene reduces the amount of red pigment in the down of a barred rhode island red female while two barring genes will reduce the pigment in the males down enough to distinguish the difference between the male and female. This is a dosage effect. This is the principle that applies to non-extended black chicks (E).

So, are you indicating that the dosage effect does not work on wheaten down. ?????? Or are you indicating that the down color of the rhode island red is too light that there is no color to inhibit.

3. Between the gold allele, mahogany gene and autosomal red there will be enough red color in the down to be inhibited by the barring gene or genes (see pictures below).


This is two of many rhode island red chicks I hatched. The chicks have enough color to accommodate the dosage effect of the barring gene.








Tim

 

[RedRidge]

Thank you Nic.
I believe I am understanding that what Tim is trying to do is create something similar to the Rhodebar that is not Brussbar based.
To me, even if it it similar, that is not the same as a Rhodebar.
Sounds like Tim is developing his own auto sexed breed.
Please note... This is not a criticism on my part for I am quite new to Rhodebars. It is simply an observation that took me several pages of posts to realize after Tim confused me and made me question my comment about wheaten.
That said... It further ingrains that I'm on the right track for what I want to accomplish. It also further ingrains that should I ever want/need other genetics for my long term plan that I need to ask very specific questions about the genetics of the birds involved or I could end up with a totally different outcome.
All in all I guess I should be pretty tickled that I have the birds I do to start with. 20 HRIR and 7 Rhodebar should get me there eventually without having to venture outside (which is dislike doing anyway)

 

[melroseladi]

It is my understanding that the Brussbar was created using Barred Plymouth Rock (which would give the barring) and Brown Sussex (which would give the wildtype) so if you created your own line of Rhodebar using Barred Plymouth Rock and Rhode Island Reds you would also need to cross in something to get the wildtype to get auto-sexing that is easily recognizable at hatch.

Penny