The Rhodebar thread!

[RedRidge]

Penny... I figured out months ago that you and I had much the same goal.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
a Single Barred Rhodebar male would only be for shows, now they are Partially Austosexing meaning you can tell the single Barred males chicks from the Females chicks, the issue would be that none barring males will look just as females, but thats only for a few days, say after a week you should be able to tell a barred females from a none barred male. on their chick feathers... now there is a genetic way to produce a Dark doulbe barred male, the genetics are a bit on the deep side.. but basically you need to outsource a mutan Barring gene(one of many) you see the Barring gene found on Barred rock is not the only Barring gene. there is about 3 to 4 mutations and some of these mutations create Dark looking double barred males.. here take a look at Australian's Dark Plymouth Rock birds..http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/6/62/62e5ac67_018_534x640_534x640_401x480_.jpeg and here is my lengthy explanation as to why there are Dark Barred Legbar males and why there are Light Barred males, these Dark males are infact double barred but their Chick down is not affacted(Diluted) by the double barred effect of Barring, they are as dark if not darker than the female chicks they hatch with, the only difference would be the headspot and undefined chick down.. you may want to take a look at it.. here is the link https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...oup-standard-of-perfection/1160#post_11037096

 

[melroseladi]

Thanks Marvin. Wow are those Rocks DARK! Geez! More to figure out. It would be nice to be able to get that dark coloring on Rhodebar cocks, have them be double barred, and still be able to easily sex them at hatch.

Penny

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
we would need to outsource the "Dark Barring" gene from those Dark barred Legbar roosters that Green Fire Farms carry... what is a issue for them is a gift for the Rhodebar breeders, at least for the one willing to get the "Dark Barring" gene in to their breeding pen. the Breeding would be a strait forward matter.. Dark Barred Male mated to Rhodebar hens. select for the Dark colore males and breed that boy back to Rhodebar females.. from that point is only a matter of selecting for dark barred males and improving color and type while getting rid of the Legbar creast,white earlobes and the cream gene... they already have e+/e+ and B/B that is need it for Autosexing. I dont know if any of you are willing to try it

 

[aurissavannahs]

we would need to outsource the "Dark Barring" gene from those Dark barred Legbar roosters that Green Fire Farms carry... what is a issue for them is a gift for the Rhodebar breeders, at least for the one willing to get the "Dark Barring" gene in to their breeding pen. the Breeding would be a strait forward matter..Dark Barred Male mated to Rhodebar hens. select for the Dark colore males and breed that boy back to Rhodebar females.. from that point is only a matter of selecting for dark barred males and improving color and type while getting rid of the Legbar creast,white earlobes and the cream gene...they already have e+/e+ and B/B that is need it for Autosexing. I dont know if any of you are willing to try it

You would also have to eliminate the blue egg gene. Just a thought: Greenfire may have already tried this thus the green eggs showing up in some Rhodebars. Niclandia would you come over to the Norwegian Jaerhons to answer some questions? https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/8796/norwegian-jaerhon/580
Kat

 

[nicalandia]

you are right. we would need to get rid of the green eggs too... but what GFF has done, at least the Rhodebar x Legbar mating has not been well planed and has only affected the breed. one would need to create a sound breeding plan before hand..

Edit. I have read the Link you posted and I just dont see a specific genetic questions you have. and I am no expert on the breed. sorry.

 

[tadkerson]

Tim the chicks you have shown are very Red enhanced, and they would make a perfect background for the double effect of Barring on the chicks,

My chicks came from a hatchery and I bred them for a darker down and darker adult plumage. Anybody can do this and it would be part of the process of breeding a rhodebar. This is part of the art and science of breeding birds.


but most rhodebars at this stage lack this type of red Enhancements... and this is Why wheaten will not make the perfect or even a good Autosexing e allele because it depends on so many genes like s+(sex linked recessive gold) Mh(Autosomal Mahogany) Autosomal Red and other enhancers found on SQ RIR,

You just posted my chicks would make a perfect background. My chicks were nothing special- I did not do any out crossing to enhance the down color- all of the genes were found in the birds I purchased from a hatchery. I simple bred them to have a darker down color before I started to make my rhodbar. This is a male with the females behind him. A female below- she is darker but the sun is making here appear lighter.







Also we need to take to account that some genes may effect the expression of homozygous barring, so all in all wheaten is not a good e allele for autosexing birds...lets take a look a bird with the closest genetic make up to the Autosexing "Rhodebar" but this bird is not Autosexing... the Delaware, their genetic make up is for males. S/S eWh/eWh Co/Co B/B mh+/mh+..... While tim's Rhodebar would be s+/s+ eWh/eWh Co/Co B/B Mh/Mh... both birds are Barred Columbian Wheaten but Tim's bird would have to have all of the genes on the same bird to make it an Autosexing bird..

It may take a little extra work to produce a wheaten bird but that is what the British Standard demands. Yes, my birds would have all of the genes needed to meet the British standard and produce an auto-sexing breed. The birds I worked with were hatchery stock and came with all the genes needed to produce an auto-sexing breed. Here is one of the first males I produced. Once again you say my birds would be autosexing- why? because they do have all the genes needed.

Sure thing, the Delaware is not auto-sexing but what does that have to do with the Rhodbar. The Delaware is not bred to be auto-sexing and is bred for a different standard. The down color of a silver wheaten delaware is completely different than a gold enhanced rhode island red.


He is not a rhodebar but something close.





This is a male and female that were what I was working toward. She is barred- the barring does not show well in the picture.






This is another example of barred red bird I was working on- he was genetically gold, birchen, columbian, dark brown restricted etc.. He is a rough looking bird but he had all the genes I was wanting in him ( not body type and a few other traits). His sisters and brothers pecked his tail ( as a chick) so it looks ugly. I had another male similar to him- but a possum killed him before I could get a picture. That male was awesome. The male below looks more like the birds on Green Fire Farms web site than my wheaten birds.







. Wildtype e+ does not have this issue at all, none of that. Silver, Mahogany, Autosomal red will not affec its autosexing traits, all you need is e+/e+ and B/B thats all... now tell me which genetic road do you wish to take? or even more, do you wish to change your birds that already carry e+ for eWh birds? infact changing your wildtype Rhodebars for Wheaten Rhodebars? all thing equal you gain nothing in terms of type and color..this is what I would do if I wanted SQ Rhodebar birds.



I have seen no evidence that anybody on this string has posted birds that are wild type and barred. This ( e+/e+, B/B or B/w) would be the crele secondary color pattern. The birds would be rhode island crele. If the birds are wild type, gold and columbian restricted they will work as rhodbar but they will not meet the British standard for undercolor.

My point is that if a bird will meet the British standard it has to be wheaten. I hope everyone who wants to breed toward the British Standard would use a wheaten based bird.



select the Best looking Wildtype Rhodebar bird you have(males would be best) keep an eye for the Best SQ or Herritage Rhode Island Red Pair you can get your hands on, the type of birds that will produce such a Rich colored donw tim showed just a few post ago..Best Rhodebar you can get. mated to a SQ RIR hen.. now this will produce good quality birds, lets see how the F1s will look. while wheaten is a very unstable e allele, sometimes completely recessive and sometimes having an effect on ER chick down(as shown by Tim Adkerson a while ago) most eWh/e+ chicks I have hatch looks Chipmunk like in down color. some may look all wheaten(not keepers) I would keep the chipmunk looking birds and keep an eye for the Barred males with a headspot.by doing this cross you will undoubtedly enhance color and Type on your current Rhodebars even if you have lose Ture Autosexability...But thats why you are keeping the Wildtype looking chicks..when the F1 chicks mature you can take the Best male and mate it back to the Rhode Island Red hen and the Best Female mate it back to the Rhode Island Red Rooster... but if you dont have enough room for two breeding pens just use the F1 males back to RIR females. again be in the Look out for Wildtype looking chicks.. after the BC1(Back Cross to Parent 1) you can use them with your mainstream Rhodebar lines..

I was under the impression this string was about creating a rhodbar that meets the British standard. The individuals on this string can do what they want to do.

1. I have given enough evidence that indicates that the show quality Rhodbars in Great Britian were wheaten and not wild type.

2. The rhodbar in Breat Britian were utility or show quality (SQ) birds and the SQ birds were bred to meet the standard. The wild type birds would not meet this standard.

3. I thought this thread was about breeding birds to meet a standard and I thought the standard would be similar to the British Standard. That standard calls for wheaten birds not wild type birds.

4. I have posted earlier the best auto-sexing birds are wild type but that is not the issue. Rhodbar should be a barred rhode island red and only a barred rhode island red will meet the British standard.

5. I have never said a person can not produce a wild type rhodebar. My point is that in order to meet the British Standard the birds had to be wheaten.

If anybody wants to produce a show quality Rhodbar that meets the British Standard please do so but the bird has to be wheaten to get the correct under color, etc.

If you want a utility bird, go ahead and breed in the wild type alleles or maybe the standard in the USA will be different than the British.

I did not realize until after I had posted that Marvin had posted on this string. I broke my cardinal rule- do not post on the same string as Marvin. I always spend way too much time defending a post. I have wasted too much time on this post and I know I will never convince Marvin that the British show quality rhodebar were wheaten.

Anybody who has questions can send me a PM.


There is another possibility- many ( but not all) red sussex or speckled sussex produce a down that is similar to wild type. This down color could also be used to produce a rhodebar. The adult plumage looks wheaten but the down in many chicks does not look wheaten.


Tim

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
wow.. good post Tim I appreciated. and I like the birds you have shown so far, seems the quality has gone up from utilitarian traits... and sorry if I seem to harsh sometime, genetic is one of my passion and I seem to get all excited when I debate with you, but that got me demoted from the "Educator" Tag I had... I agree with you that Autosexing can be done with eWh but with more complexity, while e+ will get you the best autosexing birds out there(best e allel so far)... what I was trying to get at using the Delaware is.. if we could magycally change their eWh allele with the wheaten allele they would be autosexing, meaning e+ is not dependant of the sex linked gold or silver genes to make them autosexable.. I was under the impession that the "Original" Rhodebar was actually based on eWh but was later changed to e+ due to the e+ ability to be sex at hatch with more accurate rate. but if anybody has the "Rhodebar" history and can post it here so we can all learn from it..

 

[eramsey99]

What does it look like i got?

 

[Makomd]

32 posts in like 2-3 days I have some reading to do lol, maybe need to subscribe.