I am glad to hear that your birds are getting back to a normal routine so quickly. It really shows you have them on the right track. Gotta say I like crows too, smart, and protective. Just yesterday I heard a huge commotion from the murder of crows I have here. I went outside and watched and a few minutes later a hawk started flying away. It had been very close to my yard where my birds free range in the day. I am so glad the crows were there for my birds just as I am sure your birds will be much safer with your crows around. Keep up the great work.
The road less traveled...back to good health! They have lice, mites, scale mites, worms, anemia, gl
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Bee
Thank you so much for working with those of us who haven't got a clue but want to do the right thing. Trying to get answers on the forum can be frustrating and very time consuming especially when one only has a "sense" that the chicken is not as healthy as it was and there are no overt signs.
My "sense" is that my older birds have nutritional issues although I feed them the best feed I can buy, offer nutritional treats and they free range on about a 1/2 acre in a wooded area.
As you know, one of them had worms (that was overt) and not knowing who it was I felt compelled to treat everyone with piperazine. I am considering skipping the recommended follow up--I know you would agree and I haven't seen more worms. My next step will be to research the fermented feed which I will do shortly and feed the items you mentioned earlier in this thread in order to build up their health (pumpkin, cottage cheese etc) --getting that today.
I have a couple questions. 1) I am wondering if the free ranging and access to greens is a problem since we live in a forest where there is no grass. I supplement with collards etc but not daily.2) I am concerned about the rooster who has had watery poop for several weeks and drinks a lot. I give ACV in the water always and recently gave vitamins and electrolytes for a few days (the farm store guy recommendation). The rooster naturally shed his spurs some weeks ago which suggests to me that I may never have really known how old he is since he may have shed them before. He was always large and may be an old man. Also, he had 2 distinct big tail feathers that he has dropped in the last couple of days. He seems hungry and is not sharing as much with the girls. I am making sure he has lots of access to the feed. You see? watery poop and little else to go on. I clean the area where they sleep daily and put in fresh straw. The rest of the coop area barely has droppings since they don't hang out in there. I just let the straw build up in there. I don't go around the yard and pick up droppings. If there is something I should be doing I would really like to know. I am happy to do it.
Again, I am very grateful that you are taking on this project with the goal of helping those of us who are not OTs.
Reading your story of your poor birds and how those people treated them makes me very angry. It is unforgivable! This is the part of life that I find so hard to accept--when an animal, child or human is not able to speak up for themselves or defend themselves and are abused. I know we can only change the world a little at a time, but I wish it were faster. We've come a long way in the past 100 years but not far enough. There is so much to do.
Thank you so much for working with those of us who haven't got a clue but want to do the right thing. Trying to get answers on the forum can be frustrating and very time consuming especially when one only has a "sense" that the chicken is not as healthy as it was and there are no overt signs.
My "sense" is that my older birds have nutritional issues although I feed them the best feed I can buy, offer nutritional treats and they free range on about a 1/2 acre in a wooded area.
As you know, one of them had worms (that was overt) and not knowing who it was I felt compelled to treat everyone with piperazine. I am considering skipping the recommended follow up--I know you would agree and I haven't seen more worms. My next step will be to research the fermented feed which I will do shortly and feed the items you mentioned earlier in this thread in order to build up their health (pumpkin, cottage cheese etc) --getting that today.
I have a couple questions. 1) I am wondering if the free ranging and access to greens is a problem since we live in a forest where there is no grass. I supplement with collards etc but not daily.2) I am concerned about the rooster who has had watery poop for several weeks and drinks a lot. I give ACV in the water always and recently gave vitamins and electrolytes for a few days (the farm store guy recommendation). The rooster naturally shed his spurs some weeks ago which suggests to me that I may never have really known how old he is since he may have shed them before. He was always large and may be an old man. Also, he had 2 distinct big tail feathers that he has dropped in the last couple of days. He seems hungry and is not sharing as much with the girls. I am making sure he has lots of access to the feed. You see? watery poop and little else to go on. I clean the area where they sleep daily and put in fresh straw. The rest of the coop area barely has droppings since they don't hang out in there. I just let the straw build up in there. I don't go around the yard and pick up droppings. If there is something I should be doing I would really like to know. I am happy to do it.
Again, I am very grateful that you are taking on this project with the goal of helping those of us who are not OTs.
Reading your story of your poor birds and how those people treated them makes me very angry. It is unforgivable! This is the part of life that I find so hard to accept--when an animal, child or human is not able to speak up for themselves or defend themselves and are abused. I know we can only change the world a little at a time, but I wish it were faster. We've come a long way in the past 100 years but not far enough. There is so much to do.
I have a suggestion for probiotics. I do things as cheaply as possible. Yes, I'm a tightwad. Because I have to be. Here's my suggestion:
Learn how to make Kefir. It's a fermented milk thingie similar to runny yogurt BUT: It has many more types of organisms in it than either yogurt or cottage cheese. The deal maker for me: It's brainless to make. And if you have access to your own milk, it will be free as well. I don't, but using some kefir "grains" that I got at an organic farm, I can now have a ready source of good probiotics for just the cost of a jug of whole milk. Any milk, so long as it's not "ultra-pasteurized." You can even do it with powdered milk, though I don't.
Basically you put about 1/3 cup of the "grains" in a 2 pint mason jar, fill with milk, cover with coffee filter and rubber band, and leave it on the countertop. Takes anywhere from 6 to 24 hours. You can give it to them (after straining out and retaining the "grains") as is, or mix in stuff. I usually mix in some uncooked rolled oats.
I'd say though, that the hardest thing for most is getting the kefir grains to begin with. They aren't supposed to be in the plain kefir from the health food store but there's likely some tiny ones in there because I've heard of people successfully growing some "grains" starting with that. These things look kinda like cauliflower. If you have a place around that makes and sells it, they are likely to be happy to share some. If you have to mail order the things, you might not feel it's worth the bother. Understood! I wouldn't do it either till I found a local source. The downside is that you can't just shove the grains in the freezer and expect to make a nice fresh batch next month. It is possible to freeze them for a while but when I don't want to keep making it, I just stick the jar with some milk in it in the fridge rather than on the countertop. It'll last a couple weeks that way.
Learn how to make Kefir. It's a fermented milk thingie similar to runny yogurt BUT: It has many more types of organisms in it than either yogurt or cottage cheese. The deal maker for me: It's brainless to make. And if you have access to your own milk, it will be free as well. I don't, but using some kefir "grains" that I got at an organic farm, I can now have a ready source of good probiotics for just the cost of a jug of whole milk. Any milk, so long as it's not "ultra-pasteurized." You can even do it with powdered milk, though I don't.
Basically you put about 1/3 cup of the "grains" in a 2 pint mason jar, fill with milk, cover with coffee filter and rubber band, and leave it on the countertop. Takes anywhere from 6 to 24 hours. You can give it to them (after straining out and retaining the "grains") as is, or mix in stuff. I usually mix in some uncooked rolled oats.
I'd say though, that the hardest thing for most is getting the kefir grains to begin with. They aren't supposed to be in the plain kefir from the health food store but there's likely some tiny ones in there because I've heard of people successfully growing some "grains" starting with that. These things look kinda like cauliflower. If you have a place around that makes and sells it, they are likely to be happy to share some. If you have to mail order the things, you might not feel it's worth the bother. Understood! I wouldn't do it either till I found a local source. The downside is that you can't just shove the grains in the freezer and expect to make a nice fresh batch next month. It is possible to freeze them for a while but when I don't want to keep making it, I just stick the jar with some milk in it in the fridge rather than on the countertop. It'll last a couple weeks that way.
- Thread starter
- #94
There you are!!! I was hoping you'd show up!
I've never really heard of a rooster shedding his spurs...maybe someone else can explain that one? Never had that happen in any of my flocks. The roo feathers being lost at this time of the year is kind of normal....that is usually all my roosters lose when molting season comes...a few cock feathers and some small feathers in their "pant legs", if you know what I mean.
The watery stools could explain the increased thirst..sounds like he's dehydrated and trying to replace electrolytes and fluid volume. If the temps are real high, I've noticed the chickens will have watery stools and increased thirst at times.
A 1/2 acre should be an adequate space for no more birds than you have. Any other animals sharing that space?
The fermented feed could really help correct bowel issues but there may be something in the coop or soil environment that is the root cause to poor digestion and conditioning. Forest and woodlots are great forage areas for bug protein and many will assure you that chickens don't need greens, but mine graze actively on greens throughout the day and increase that grazing towards evening. They wouldn't eat it if they didn't need it, is my philosophy about chickens.
Straw bedding in a humid area like Georgia is probably not what I would choose....I'd definitely do pine shavings for your area. I'd also start doing deep litter instead of cleaning out each day, even with the stool issue. Deep litter, when done properly, is a great place to start building good nematodes:
http://nematode.unl.edu/wormgen.htm
http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/gardening/all-about-nematodes----the-good-ones/
Quote:
You can see that creating a good environment in the coop can promote the growth of nematodes that can actually feed on the things that often harm our livestock/chickens. A good, decomposing deep litter system is like having a great little micro-mini compost heap in your coop. Good ventilation is key and monitoring the moisture and smell, making adjustments accordingly and letting nature take its course will help tremendously to grow good things in the coop instead of bad things that can cause constant and recurring health problems in a flock. Straw does not compost real well and tends to get moldy before doing so...not the good kind of mold. Wood shavings take longer to break down but they tend to stay drier while doing so...good fluffing and turning in a humid climate can also keep them from forming a "cap" of moist pockets on the surface that will grow mold beneath the cap.
Catherine, there isn't much you can do right now about providing enough greens for the chickens but you can clear a few trees in the middle of your woodland and let the sunshine in on a small patch. Plant some grasses there like you would for attracting deer and wildlife...they make a "game feed" mix. It doesn't have to be a big area for your small flock but it can hold enough extra, vital nutrients they can use, be more cover for different species of bugs, and will improve the acidity of the soils there. The best part? You won't have to keep replanting, as most of those game mixes have both annual and perennial grasses that grow well in forest type soils and will reseed themselves for the following year.
You can also purchase some great alfalfa hay and leave it in a dry place near the coop....you will soon see them sampling from it. Some folks are even placing alfalfa pellets in their fermented feed to increase the plant proteins there.
I hope you keep checking in and posting about progress or the lack thereof on this issue. It's a hard thing to figure out what is affecting your birds in your area and this often takes time and a lot of research to find out the possible causes.
I've never really heard of a rooster shedding his spurs...maybe someone else can explain that one? Never had that happen in any of my flocks. The roo feathers being lost at this time of the year is kind of normal....that is usually all my roosters lose when molting season comes...a few cock feathers and some small feathers in their "pant legs", if you know what I mean.
The watery stools could explain the increased thirst..sounds like he's dehydrated and trying to replace electrolytes and fluid volume. If the temps are real high, I've noticed the chickens will have watery stools and increased thirst at times.
A 1/2 acre should be an adequate space for no more birds than you have. Any other animals sharing that space?
The fermented feed could really help correct bowel issues but there may be something in the coop or soil environment that is the root cause to poor digestion and conditioning. Forest and woodlots are great forage areas for bug protein and many will assure you that chickens don't need greens, but mine graze actively on greens throughout the day and increase that grazing towards evening. They wouldn't eat it if they didn't need it, is my philosophy about chickens.
Straw bedding in a humid area like Georgia is probably not what I would choose....I'd definitely do pine shavings for your area. I'd also start doing deep litter instead of cleaning out each day, even with the stool issue. Deep litter, when done properly, is a great place to start building good nematodes:
http://nematode.unl.edu/wormgen.htm
http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/gardening/all-about-nematodes----the-good-ones/
Quote:
You can see that creating a good environment in the coop can promote the growth of nematodes that can actually feed on the things that often harm our livestock/chickens. A good, decomposing deep litter system is like having a great little micro-mini compost heap in your coop. Good ventilation is key and monitoring the moisture and smell, making adjustments accordingly and letting nature take its course will help tremendously to grow good things in the coop instead of bad things that can cause constant and recurring health problems in a flock. Straw does not compost real well and tends to get moldy before doing so...not the good kind of mold. Wood shavings take longer to break down but they tend to stay drier while doing so...good fluffing and turning in a humid climate can also keep them from forming a "cap" of moist pockets on the surface that will grow mold beneath the cap.
Catherine, there isn't much you can do right now about providing enough greens for the chickens but you can clear a few trees in the middle of your woodland and let the sunshine in on a small patch. Plant some grasses there like you would for attracting deer and wildlife...they make a "game feed" mix. It doesn't have to be a big area for your small flock but it can hold enough extra, vital nutrients they can use, be more cover for different species of bugs, and will improve the acidity of the soils there. The best part? You won't have to keep replanting, as most of those game mixes have both annual and perennial grasses that grow well in forest type soils and will reseed themselves for the following year.
You can also purchase some great alfalfa hay and leave it in a dry place near the coop....you will soon see them sampling from it. Some folks are even placing alfalfa pellets in their fermented feed to increase the plant proteins there.
I hope you keep checking in and posting about progress or the lack thereof on this issue. It's a hard thing to figure out what is affecting your birds in your area and this often takes time and a lot of research to find out the possible causes.
Bee. Thank you for such an indepth and thoughtful response. I don't want to hog this discussion but I'd like to respond. I hope it helps someone else.
I had sort of thought I was engaging in the deep litter method but I think I have 2 problems. One--not enough poop and two the straw issue. I take out the night droppings and put them in the compost heap leaving the coop free of poop mostly. I believe you are right about the high moisture level. No one is interested in the compost pile these days because we have had a lot of rain and it has a lot of straw in it. I will switch to pine shavings when I am done with the straw and read the websites you posted.
With respect to the acreage, I have a complex set of fencing that keeps them enclosed in less space in the summer so I can try to grow something. I've just extended their foraging space so that it is now at least a 1/2 acre maybe more. Only dogs and cats share the space and at our house chickens rule. I will open up the back to them all winter if I don't plant a winter garden. However, I think I will plant alfalfa once I research its growing needs. I like the idea of adding the pellets to the fermented feed.
I have another question: what is apple cider vinegar with the mother? What is the mother and where do I find her/it?
Finally, I agree about the greens. I can't believe someone thinks they don't need them. They are voracious when they get them--chopped up, of course, or held by me so they can rip it apart.
Bee, I am a fan and I am always interested in what you have to say.
Oh, one more thing--about guilt. I had a similar situation with cats. I had about 10 cats/kittens dumped on me. I got them all fixed with help (thanks to Spay GA and Atlanta Pets) and then I had to find homes for them. To this day I am not sure I am happy with all the placements, but I did the best I could with what I had at the time--and that is all any of us can do. You are fixing the problem now and that is all you can do.
I had sort of thought I was engaging in the deep litter method but I think I have 2 problems. One--not enough poop and two the straw issue. I take out the night droppings and put them in the compost heap leaving the coop free of poop mostly. I believe you are right about the high moisture level. No one is interested in the compost pile these days because we have had a lot of rain and it has a lot of straw in it. I will switch to pine shavings when I am done with the straw and read the websites you posted.
With respect to the acreage, I have a complex set of fencing that keeps them enclosed in less space in the summer so I can try to grow something. I've just extended their foraging space so that it is now at least a 1/2 acre maybe more. Only dogs and cats share the space and at our house chickens rule. I will open up the back to them all winter if I don't plant a winter garden. However, I think I will plant alfalfa once I research its growing needs. I like the idea of adding the pellets to the fermented feed.
I have another question: what is apple cider vinegar with the mother? What is the mother and where do I find her/it?
Finally, I agree about the greens. I can't believe someone thinks they don't need them. They are voracious when they get them--chopped up, of course, or held by me so they can rip it apart.
Bee, I am a fan and I am always interested in what you have to say.
Oh, one more thing--about guilt. I had a similar situation with cats. I had about 10 cats/kittens dumped on me. I got them all fixed with help (thanks to Spay GA and Atlanta Pets) and then I had to find homes for them. To this day I am not sure I am happy with all the placements, but I did the best I could with what I had at the time--and that is all any of us can do. You are fixing the problem now and that is all you can do.
I too LOVE my crows. This time of year they really start forming a murder. They are keeping my Red Tails at bay too, as the crows roost close by. Even though I have monofilament stretched all over my orchard to keep the hawks out, they are extra insurance. I also doubt that a hawk could carry off one of my big English Buff Orps. My 7 month old cockerel is now 14 lbs., and thank goodness a very good natured fellow, but watchful over his girls.Morning update: Rooster crowed at 6:30 per normal for him....and kept crowing until 7 am!Now, I know some of you out there are thinking, "What the heck??? This chick actually WANTS her rooster to crow a lot of a morning????" He doesn't crow all day like most roosters...he wakes us up and then he shuts up. I like that in a rooster.
I'm just looking for the return to normal, is all. This rooster is not an excessively noisy bird when he's in the best of health, but he is usually consistent with his timing and duration of crow. He's back!Now, when I see him breeding the hens, I'll relax about the rooster.
The hens all shuffled through the nest boxes all morning long but no one laid an egg. It's good to see renewed interest in the nest boxes. More normal behavior...good sign.
The fermented feed has finally started to smell and look like it should....should be ready to feed by this evening!
The local murder of crows successfully fought off a small hawk this morning(small and grey..couldn't identify it from a distance but could see that it was a hawk)....couldn't be more pleased than if I had hired them myself for just this purpose. I heard the same family of crows doing battle with a red tail hawk further up the hill the day before yesterday. Who needs the dog when you have the most vigilant and noisy crow pack in the neighborhood?
Bee, I do hope you finish that book. Pushing 60 and new to chickens, I have been suspended in air sometimes between OT's and Foo-Foo's in deciding what to do when facing problems. ( No real network of "chicken support" here in our area. Lots of independence in Northern MN. So BYC is great.....but confusing sometimes) It would be good to read the combined the no-nonsense with the compassion that is real in you toward your birds.
Why I'm looking forward to a new book: I don't want yet another chicken health book that just describes what's wrong (without color pictures) and then tells me to consult a vet. ( Yes. Right. All the vets around here do with chickens is eat them, unless they're vegetarians) This experience you and your abused flock are passing through could be a great introduction to an amazing collection of comapssion and practicality to 'bridge the gap" between two "camps. I'm sure it's going to be a book full of the colorful language of southern charm and humor.
Cheering you on in gratitude for your tireless contribution to the uninitiated and experienced alike. Will be reading every word of this thread.
- Thread starter
- #98
You might find that you have better success in growing White Dutch Clover...it seems to grow well just about anywhere and it is a chicken favorite and a perennial. It is also a great bee attractant, so your gardens will benefit.
Mother vinegar is simply ACV that has not been pasteurized and still contains the yeast cultures that are created during the fermentation process. Bragg's is the most known brand of mother vinegar out on the market, not sure of many others. You can order it online or find it in most stores that sell health foods and bulk food grains. You can buy one and split it off into cheaper, regular ACV to create vinegar with a mother in each bottle. This can go on exponentially.
One of the health benefits of mother vinegar was explained earlier in this thread and contains a link to further info. It has so many benefits...for us and the animals. I've used it for all my livestock over the years and have found nothing is its equal when it comes to being a multipurpose health tonic. I've used it on dogs, sheep, cattle, rabbits and chickens. It never lets me down, especially when combined with other natural husbandry like clean and balanced soils and housing/bedding environments and more natural food systems found in pasture life.
Thank you! Very kind words indeed! Every time I get enthused about writing the book, other things in life take a precedence and my mind loses that inspiration. This forum seems to suit my spurts of inspired thought and so I'll dash off a few things here...but I know it could never be as effective as putting it all down in one place that could be well referenced by others.
Right now, chickens seems to be of so little consequence in the bigger matters of the world that are looming in my mind and heart. My time spent here is just a distraction from these weightier matters....but I can't seem to concentrate long enough to actually construct a book from these little moments of distraction. It seems so trivial compared to the big picture, you know?
I may just finish up a little webpage I have started and turn it into a blog so that others may join in and ask questions and I can get the OTs to help me answer things...does that sound more doable than this big ol' forum?
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Aw, shucks, y'all...yer makin' me blush! I guess if anyone could wax poetic about chickens, it would be me.....
I want to thank everyone for all the kind words and words of encouragement...they mean so much. I'm not normally this soft and mushy, as you all probably know. There's just something about these birds that formed a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. If I hadn't known them before, it probably wouldn't affect me so much, I guess.
These chickens have been a part of my life for a few good years, some of the best times of my life were spent in that place and these birds were part of the fabric of that backdrop. They were glossy, bright and proud once and they had a quiet dignity about them that I admire...don't know when I've ever had a flock that I liked so much over the years. Seeing their current ugliness and their slow weak steps is like a curse and a blight....I guess something like that makes a person want to make things right again. Nothing that pretty and useful should ever be treated so badly, should it?
Makes me think of that line Seabiscuit: "When sumpthin's broken, you don't just throw it away. Ya see if ya k'n fix it." ..or something like that. Spills over into relationships and lots of things.
Not finished reading through the whole thread yet but I do think I agree that is has the backdrop, language and and tension for "the novel that teaches" (but this is non-fiction). I learned about World War II from Bodie Thone's early book series. Learned more about the Civil War from Lynn Austin's historical fiction series.
Now....would you do this for us, Bee? Would you teach us, this chicken-counter-culture diversified group , by doing the same? It's so popular now to write fiction and insert recipes, etc. But yours could be autobiograhical if you wanted. I can totally "see" you lying out int the run with cars driving by and kids pointing and saying: "look daddy. what's the matter with that lady? Is she dead?"
This would be fabulous. You're writing it now. Just my sense, but I think you're a spiritual person and it really comes through your words, even when you're not talking about 'spiritual things'. I know your book would 'pulse' because it reflects the inner life of the one writing....just as music does. Really does feel like I'm reading a book I just can't put down.
Now for my question: Since an eagle flew over my girls and then boomeranged when the roo and I sounded the alarm...I have been paranoid about no cover on my run so they are confined to a netted up part of it with sand bottom. What's the good of their good health if they'll have no living body to contain it? We are on a knoll in the woods and all predators are thick! Anyone here in our area who just free-ranges loses all their chickens, one-by-one, by one predator or another. Our full run is huge and grassy with trees for shade way at the back. This is a source of contention between me and won't mention who....but he lives in the house.
imo bee a web page would most certainly be a start.. the worlds problems are with the powers that be. i find it myself, pitiful that man has totally destroyed themselves in less than 200 years. since the industrial revolution mankind has destroyed the earth and the morals that were placed upon them.. it amazes me that the world has been around for millions of years and because of mans greed. the world will most likely not be here in 200 years.
so in the mean time write that book and pass knowledge to those who want it. writing is a expression of ones self. i know by writing to you, that you have a certain passion and that passion must be shared to others.
i could have just p.m. you with this. however that would be just me sending you a message. there are countless others that are touched by you and it would be selfish of me not to bring that to public attention.
true teachers are a blessing and when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
now is that time bee. write the book your students are waiting
so in the mean time write that book and pass knowledge to those who want it. writing is a expression of ones self. i know by writing to you, that you have a certain passion and that passion must be shared to others.
i could have just p.m. you with this. however that would be just me sending you a message. there are countless others that are touched by you and it would be selfish of me not to bring that to public attention.
true teachers are a blessing and when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
now is that time bee. write the book your students are waiting
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