The Search for Superbird

[gojira]

Coronation Sussex were a specific color which was recreated. Same with Victoria's Jubilee Orpingtons (which are basically speckled Sussex, and not the same color as other "Jubilee" breeds, like Cornish). Colombian Wyandottes were a specific color shown at a specific specific event, yet many breeds not present at that event are commonly referred to as "Colombian". Lots of breeds have special color names. Dark Cornish are not the same as Dark Brahmas, for instance.

Coronation is simply being used as highly informal shorthand for the color here as Coronation Sussex are the only birds exhibiting that color in common usage. It's easier to say that lavender Colombian, which I've already discussed as yet another "brand name" phenotype term.

Since Coronation Sussex were a specific color, and I will add pattern, that was recreated, your Easter Egger still does not qualify. You are making my point bringing up the Jubilee fowl. Jubilee was an event, and the birds created for that event were given that name. They have different colors and patterns, and that is irrelevant to the name. Jubilee Orpingtons are not "basically Speckled Sussex". Dark Cornish and Dark Brahmas have the same pattern, with the former expressing gold, and the latter expressing silver. Dark Aseel and Dark Shamo are the same color and pattern as Dark Cornish.

Coronation Sussex are not "lavender columbian", and your Easter Egger is not the same color or pattern as a Coronation Sussex. So, unless you made it for someone's Coronation, the name makes no sense.

I guess I need to check on my Model T Fords....

 

[Indyshent]

Dark Cornish I've seen don't look like dark Brahmas. Breeders took much better care with the lacing in the Cornish, whereas the dark Brahmas are often fuzzier on the multiple lacing to the point of being more unifirm gray sometimes. Dark Brahmas are silver penciled--meaning, the same color as silver penciled Rocks but not the same color as dark Cornish. The Dark Cornish pattern actually has other genes at work and is more complicated on a genetic level.

Yes, every bird I've ever seen that was labeled a Coronation Sussex was Colombian but with lavender instead of black. Maybe I'm seeing poor imitations. Maybe they were recreated wrong.

Colombian refers to an event, just like Coronation and Jubilee, but you won't have a problem using that term, will you? How does one event come to mean a phenotype better than another term? It all comes down to how often the term is used and by whom.

What, pray tell, is the phenotypic difference between a Speckled Sussex and a Jubilee Orpington? Neither is Mille fleur, which is lighter. American stocks of Jubilees have pretty much been interbred with Speckled Sussex to such an extent that the two breeds and colors here are pretty much indistinguishable. Sussex are less popular here, so they're generally closer to their original form, whereas Orpingtons are bred huge by breeders and smaller by hatcheries until neither extreme was likely the original ideal of the breed even. Not that breed standards never change through the ages and places (reference lengths for Saint Bernards, both through gross size and fur length).

 

[Indyshent]

Lavender here in the States is self-blue elsewhere, which is true breeding, unlike "blue" which is sometimes the descriptor used for Coronation Sussex. Over here though, we call blue Colombian exactly that. All of the Coronation birds I've ever seen have always been lavender because it's true breeding and that's what everyone calls "Coronation" here.

Here's a little bit about the World's Columbian Exposition from 1893 as the origin of that term for the phenotype. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyandotte_chicken Columbian now us commonly used to denote the phenotype of the original Columbian Wyandottes even though these other breeds weren't present at the fair and aren't Wyandottes. I'm not sure why you're so much more offended for me using the term Coronation as shorthand between poultry enthusiasts when it refers to a bird with no other plumage pattern (with Jubilee, as I mentioned, I could understand more confusion as there are two types of Jubilee plumage patterns--but not so with Coronation, hence why it could be used as a jocular shorthand) but don't appear to be offended at all when the term Columbian refers a different specific event that is even relatively close in era to the Victoria's Jubilees and Edward VIII's non-existent Coronation. What difference does it make what event said name is based on?

This one has a bit about what the original Coronation was rumored to look like, but as nobody had color photos at the time and the coronation never took place and a big war happened... well, what is now known as a Coronation Sussex might not look like said original bird (certainly not the patriotic Union Jack coloration of the rumors). So yeah, what's known as a Coronation Sussex over here is most emphatically lavender/self-blue Columbian patterned. Always good to keep in mind that blue/lavender are frequently mislabeled depending on both region of the speaker and on knowledge of plumage colors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sussex_chicken

 

[Indyshent]

Here's some pictures if my certainly-not-a-semi-Coronation-looking-mutt-with-creamy-lacing-on-his-saddles-and-hackles

Here's some of Jazz. He's getting big quicker than expected and deep/wide through the chest. In one if these pictures, he's eating a mousemy which makes him awesome in my books. His dad's tail took a long time to fill out too, but I'm hoping he gets the extra sword feathers too

Here's Horns. He's not as diabolical as he looks. Love his comb and personality so far. He's shaping up nicely with people and other birds, so I've got high hopes.

Here's Optimus Prime. He's not done growing his tail out in this picture, but he did eventually get all four swords in. They take forever for him to grow out. He's half BCM, has a cool comb, is good with ladies and protective of them and comes by dark brown genes honestly. He's surprisingly big through the chest and definitely would be "good eatin'" if he weren't such a good boy. He chases off game birds, and I'm continously amazed at how strong the Sumatra influence is several generations down a line.

 

[Indyshent]

 

[gojira]

Dark Cornish I've seen don't look like dark Brahmas. Breeders took much better care with the lacing in the Cornish, whereas the dark Brahmas are often fuzzier on the multiple lacing to the point of being more unifirm gray sometimes. Dark Brahmas are silver penciled--meaning, the same color as silver penciled Rocks but not the same color as dark Cornish. The Dark Cornish pattern actually has other genes at work and is more complicated on a genetic level.

Yes, every bird I've ever seen that was labeled a Coronation Sussex was Colombian but with lavender instead of black. Maybe I'm seeing poor imitations. Maybe they were recreated wrong.

Colombian refers to an event, just like Coronation and Jubilee, but you won't have a problem using that term, will you? How does one event come to mean a phenotype better than another term? It all comes down to how often the term is used and by whom.

What, pray tell, is the phenotypic difference between a Speckled Sussex and a Jubilee Orpington? Neither is Mille fleur, which is lighter. American stocks of Jubilees have pretty much been interbred with Speckled Sussex to such an extent that the two breeds and colors here are pretty much indistinguishable. Sussex are less popular here, so they're generally closer to their original form, whereas Orpingtons are bred huge by breeders and smaller by hatcheries until neither extreme was likely the original ideal of the breed even. Not that breed standards never change through the ages and places (reference lengths for Saint Bernards, both through gross size and fur length).

Lavender here in the States is self-blue elsewhere, which is true breeding, unlike "blue" which is sometimes the descriptor used for Coronation Sussex. Over here though, we call blue Colombian exactly that. All of the Coronation birds I've ever seen have always been lavender because it's true breeding and that's what everyone calls "Coronation" here.

Here's a little bit about the World's Columbian Exposition from 1893 as the origin of that term for the phenotype. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyandotte_chicken Columbian now us commonly used to denote the phenotype of the original Columbian Wyandottes even though these other breeds weren't present at the fair and aren't Wyandottes. I'm not sure why you're so much more offended for me using the term Coronation as shorthand between poultry enthusiasts when it refers to a bird with no other plumage pattern (with Jubilee, as I mentioned, I could understand more confusion as there are two types of Jubilee plumage patterns--but not so with Coronation, hence why it could be used as a jocular shorthand) but don't appear to be offended at all when the term Columbian refers a different specific event that is even relatively close in era to the Victoria's Jubilees and Edward VIII's non-existent Coronation. What difference does it make what event said name is based on?

This one has a bit about what the original Coronation was rumored to look like, but as nobody had color photos at the time and the coronation never took place and a big war happened... well, what is now known as a Coronation Sussex might not look like said original bird (certainly not the patriotic Union Jack coloration of the rumors). So yeah, what's known as a Coronation Sussex over here is most emphatically lavender/self-blue Columbian patterned. Always good to keep in mind that blue/lavender are frequently mislabeled depending on both region of the speaker and on knowledge of plumage colors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sussex_chicken

Maybe you have seen poor examples of Dark Cornish and/or Dark Brahmas. The penciling should be the same in both. What genes are at work in the Dark Cornish pattern that are not present in Dark Brahmas?

The true Coronation Sussex was blue, not lavender. Even the link you psted said that.

Columbian became a recognized term for a particular trait. Coronation and Jubilee were use for only specific instances.

Type and tightness of feather are very different in Jubilee Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex. Look for good examples of each, not just random birds.

I am aware of lavender/self blue and blue. The original Coronation Sussex, and the UK recreation were blue, and the Australian recreation, which is recreated on the US, is lavender.

 

[Indyshent]

Maybe you have seen poor examples of Dark Cornish and/or Dark Brahmas. The penciling should be the same in both. What genes are at work in the Dark Cornish pattern that are not present in Dark Brahmas?

The true Coronation Sussex was blue, not lavender. Even the link you psted said that.

Columbian became a recognized term for a particular trait. Coronation and Jubilee were use for only specific instances.

Type and tightness of feather are very different in Jubilee Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex. Look for good examples of each, not just random birds.

I am aware of lavender/self blue and blue. The original Coronation Sussex, and the UK recreation were blue, and the Australian recreation, which is recreated on the US, is lavender.

The event is not the issue. It is whether something is an accepted term or not. If one randomly assigns a name to something, what does it help? Plus, the picture you posted is neither Columbian nor lavender. Blue and lavender are not mislabeled by people who know and understand what they are talking about.

Wikipedia isn't written by poultry fanciers as I've stated I'm American, and where I am, Coronation Sussex are lavender. Lavender, blue and gray are all frequently mixed up, especially when dealing with historical data and articles written by people who don't actually know anything about the genetic basis for any of the phenotypes, so I count a lot of blue/gray/lavender stuff out the window when I know it wasn't written by someone who knew the difference between those terms.

Different opinions don't make me inferior in knowledge to you. I put the thread here because it's about genetics and breeding, not "stories of my chickens". It actually is about making and designing a breed, even if you can't be arsed to read the whole thing. It's an exercise, a work in progress, a way to inculcate knowledge and learn about what goes into to making and perfecting a breed. This conversation fits here, whether you're posting here or not. All breeds started out just like I'm starting out--with a few birds and some ideas as to how to make them better.

None of the birds termed Coronation Sussex are the same color as the original which, as I've stated had red in them and were "patriotic as Union Jacks". Nobody has the "real thing" so American Coronation Sussex are probably just as fake as English Coronation Sussex. The coronation never happened. It's the only bird named for a coronation, so it does work as a color for the exact same reason as the Columbian Exposition can double as a color (because there weren't any other birds named for it), and it's the most succinct way to describe that color.

Speckled Sussex and Jubilee Orpingtons are the same color here. Feather type does not have anything to do with color (though some colors impact feather quality, which is different). They're the same color the same way mille fleur D'Uccles are the same color as mille fleur Leghorns and Cochins. Basically mille fleur with darkening modifiers like mahogany, because they're more of the deep red instead of the gold color of mille fleur. Or at least, Jubilee Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex are the same color *over here*.

It not my fault if birds look different on different continents, or that you don't know and won't research what birds look like here, or even look up what I'm talking about regarding Brahmas and Cornish (which really do have other modifiers that Brahmas don't have to have to be perfectly worthy Brahmas). Lacing involves a lot more than you apparently realize, which is why the lacing on multiple laced patridge looks different from Sebrights, looks different from Wyandottes, looks different from silver spangled Hamburgs, looks different from Dark Cornish *over here*. This difference is probably why are there different "male" or "female" lines for Dark Brahmas as these modifiers would make the lacing much cleaner and more exhibition worthy in females but would negatively impact male coloration (as Dark Brahmas are supposed to be comparatively close to wild type in color, but with silver and the pattern gene).

Also, maybe gold and silver look the same where you are, but here they're different colors--even without the modifiers that I was talking about (ergo, "dark"=/= "dark" always). Dark Cornish also aren't merely gold here because they're darker than "gold" and more like Buckeyes and heritage RIR, which have modifiers that deepen the pheomelanin color.

If I put on a tiara and called myself queen of my own backyard, my Coronation EE would have just as much factual basis in history as Edward VIII's, and I wouldn't get my panties in a knot if someone decided to use that term as a color in an ultra-informal setting since *GUESS WHAT?* nobody's going to be giving out brand new breeds/colors of chickens to any royal party at their coronation! It's not the 1800's anymore! Queen Victoria is dead! The whole shebang was her fault, so without her keeping the hen craze around, there's no longer fashionable influence enough in royal English-speaking monarchies enough to warrant the behavior that brought about the Coronation or Jubilee birds! Those are the only birds named with those monikers, and they will continue to be the only the birds with them until poultry fancy takes off to the absurd level it was at the time of Victoria's reign (and fueled, of course, by the bringing back of exotic breeds from far off realms). It's not going to happen again. New global world we live in isn't full of such isolated places and imperialism, so the thrill of finding exotic chickens has been drastically lessened. They're not worthy gifts anymore to superpower royalty, so there won't be any more Coronation Chickens.

Even if some bird was presented to another royal, it wouldn't be English-speaking, and therefore, "Coronation" wouldn't be the term (it would be a foreign term belonging to that country, in other words).

I've already repeatedly stated that I was using the term as shorthand for lavender Columbian because that's what Coronation Sussex look like here. He looks like a poofy-cheeked version of his Coronation Sussex ancestor, so its an apt shorthand, especially since everyone on this side of the pond would know what I was talking about (even though hardly anybody knows why the birds have the Coronation moniker). I'm sorry they don't look like that where you are and that you got confused as to why anyone would ever use the shorter term in place of the longer term in a thread that's mostly notes and updates about a pretty informal project to begin with.

This thread is a journal of sorts and where I'm backing up pictures and observations on the project in digital format so I can come back here and see how the project has progressed Lots of other similar projects exist on this site and in this subforum, and there shouldn't be any problems with that *because that's what it's here for*

I was pleasantly surprised that I'd found another person who was intrigued about the history of the breeds and colors.

Over here at least, Columbian refers to a restriction of the normal black pigment through the body (which this bird exhibits--unless of course you're looking at the wrong bird in those pictures) and adding the term lavender or blue means that the bird has the black coloration in the head and tail replaced with blue or lavender (which are just dilution factors of black). Adding the term buff just means the body is gold based instead of silver but that black is still restricted to the hackles and rear. He no doubt has other modifiers at work, but he definitely has lavender instead of blue or black, and he definitely has black restricted from his body. It's not uncommon--especially in heterozygous birds--for there to be some additional color present in saddles or farther down the neck/back between the shoulders. Because there is no eumelanin in his chest, I must determine that he at least carries one copy of Columbian. I'm never going to claim that he's some prize winning paragon of any standard color, but that does make sense when he's acknowledged to be a mix. Lavender Columbian is the closest approximation of his color. It's also not uncommon for lavender birds here to have cream lacing, especially in the hackles. It's not a good thing, but it happens often enough that people still recognize the birds as fundamentally lavender and may still use said bird in breeding programs (even if you wouldn't).

 

[Indyshent]

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

Since you won't just take my word for it, here's a fancy list of chicken mutations that I've read through several times and love.

Dark Cornish-- above and beyond being dark red and not silver at all-- are "double laced" which involves two copies of the melanotic gene (Ml) and two copies of pattern (Pg), but concentric penciling found in Dark Brahmas only involves the pattern gene (Pg).

 

[gojira]

Wikipedia isn't written by poultry fanciers as I've stated I'm American, and where I am, Coronation Sussex are lavender. Lavender, blue and gray are all frequently mixed up, especially when dealing with historical data and articles written by people who don't actually know anything about the genetic basis for any of the phenotypes, so I count a lot of blue/gray/lavender stuff out the window when I know it wasn't written by someone who knew the difference between those terms.

Different opinions don't make me inferior in knowledge to you. If you don't like what I'm doing and happen to disagree with me even though I've apparently got a fair chunk of higher education in the field and have done a lot of research, then that's your problem. I put the thread here because it's about genetics and breeding, not "stories of my chickens". It actually is about making and designing a breed, even if you can't be arsed to read the whole thing. It's an exercise, a work in progress, a way to inculcate knowledge and learn about what goes into to making and perfecting a breed. This conversation fits here, whether you're posting here or not. All breeds started out just like I'm starting out--with a few birds and some ideas as to how to make them better.

None of the birds termed Coronation Sussex are the same color as the original which, as I've stated had red in them and were "patriotic as Union Jacks". Nobody has the "real thing" so American Coronation Sussex are probably just as fake as English Coronation Sussex. The coronation never happened. It's the only bird named for a coronation, so it does work as a color for the exact same reason as the Columbian Exposition can double as a color (because there weren't any other birds named for it), and it's the most succinct way to describe that color.

Speckled Sussex and Jubilee Orpingtons are the same color here. Feather type does not have anything to do with color (though some colors impact feather quality, which is different). They're the same color the same way mille fleur D'Uccles are the same color as mille fleur Leghorns and Cochins. Basically mille fleur with darkening modifiers like mahogany, because they're more of the deep red instead of the gold color of mille fleur. Or at least, Jubilee Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex are the same color *over here*.

It not my fault if birds look different on different continents, or that you don't know and won't research what birds look like here, or even look up what I'm talking about regarding Brahmas and Cornish (which really do have other modifiers that Brahmas don't have to have to be perfectly worthy Brahmas). Lacing involves a lot more than you apparently realize, which is why the lacing on multiple laced patridge looks different from Sebrights, looks different from Wyandottes, looks different from silver spangled Hamburgs, looks different from Dark Cornish *over here*. This difference is probably why are there different "male" or "female" lines for Dark Brahmas as these modifiers would make the lacing much cleaner and more exhibition worthy in females but would negatively impact male coloration (as Dark Brahmas are supposed to be comparatively close to wild type in color, but with silver and the pattern gene).

Also, maybe gold and silver look the same where you are, but here they're different colors--even without the modifiers that I was talking about (ergo, "dark"=/= "dark" always). Dark Cornish also aren't merely gold here because they're darker than "gold" and more like Buckeyes and heritage RIR, which have modifiers that deepen the pheomelanin color.

If I put on a tiara and called myself queen of my own backyard, my Coronation EE would have just as much factual basis in history as Edward VIII's, and I wouldn't get my panties in a knot if someone decided to use that term as a color in an ultra-informal setting since *GUESS WHAT?* nobody's going to be giving out brand new breeds/colors of chickens to any royal party at their coronation! It's not the 1800's anymore! Queen Victoria is dead! The whole shebang was her fault, so without her keeping the hen craze around, there's no longer fashionable influence enough in royal English-speaking monarchies enough to warrant the behavior that brought about the Coronation or Jubilee birds! Those are the only birds named with those monikers, and they will continue to be the only the birds with them until poultry fancy takes off to the absurd level it was at the time of Victoria's reign (and fueled, of course, by the bringing back of exotic breeds from far off realms). It's not going to happen again. New global world we live in isn't full of such isolated places and imperialism, so the thrill of finding exotic chickens has been drastically lessened. They're not worthy gifts anymore to superpower royalty, so there won't be any more Coronation Chickens.

Even if some bird was presented to another royal, it wouldn't be English-speaking, and therefore, "Coronation" wouldn't be the term (it would be a foreign term belonging to that country, in other words).

I've already repeatedly stated that I was using the term as shorthand for lavender Columbian because that's what Coronation Sussex look like here. He looks like a poofy-cheeked version of his Coronation Sussex ancestor, so its an apt shorthand, especially since everyone on this side of the pond would know what I was talking about (even though hardly anybody knows why the birds have the Coronation moniker). I'm sorry they don't look like that where you are and that you got confused as to why anyone would ever use the shorter term in place of the longer term in a thread that's mostly notes and updates about a pretty informal project to begin with.

This thread is a journal of sorts and where I'm backing up pictures and observations on the project in digital format so I can come back here and see how the project has progressed Lots of other similar projects exist on this site and in this subforum, and there shouldn't be any problems with that *because that's what it's here for*

I was pleasantly surprised that I'd found another person who was intrigued about the history of the breeds and colors, but I don't know why you can't say anything positive or why you have to argue over absolutely everything.

Over here at least, Columbian refers to a restriction of the normal black pigment through the body (which this bird exhibits--unless of course you're looking at the wrong bird in those pictures) and adding the term lavender or blue means that the bird has the black coloration in the head and tail replaced with blue or lavender (which are just dilution factors of black). Adding the term buff just means the body is gold based instead of silver but that black is still restricted to the hackles and rear. He no doubt has other modifiers at work, but he definitely has lavender instead of blue or black, and he definitely has black restricted from his body. It's not uncommon--especially in heterozygous birds--for there to be some additional color present in saddles or farther down the neck/back between the shoulders. Because there is no eumelanin in his chest, I must determine that he at least carries one copy of Columbian. I'm never going to claim that he's some prize winning paragon of any standard color, but that does make sense when he's acknowledged to be a mix. Lavender Columbian is the closest approximation of his color. It's also not uncommon for lavender birds here to have cream lacing, especially in the hackles. It's not a good thing, but it happens often enough that people still recognize the birds as fundamentally lavender and may still use said bird in breeding programs (even if you wouldn't).

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

Since you won't just take my word for it, here's a fancy list of chicken mutations that I've read through several times and love.

Dark Cornish-- above and beyond being dark red and not silver at all-- are "double laced" which involves two copies of the melanotic gene (Ml) and two copies of pattern (Pg), but concentric penciling found in Dark Brahmas only involves the pattern gene (Pg).

The poultry pages on Wikipedia are usually written/edited by poultry fanciers. You were the one who linked to Wikipedia, now you are discrediting It? I am Native American. Where i am from, the original Coronation Sussex were Blue Columbian. They were recreated in their country of origin, the UK, and were again Blue Columbian. They were recreated in Australia as Lavender Columbian. In the US, they were patterned after the Australian birds.


Columbian is not a color.

Phenotype involves more than color.

Dark Brahmas are nothing like wild type. And I have done quite a bit of research. It might help if you did some.

How do your Dark Cornish Bantams do in shows? My son's do quite well. I am familiar with the pattern. His Partridge Wyandotte Bantams do well also, and I am familiar with that pattern as well. If you aren't familiar, that is the same pattern as Dark Brahmas. Notice i said pattern, not color. You seem to confuse the two.

I can say positive things where it is warranted. I am not arguing. I am merely trying to help, since you said you are here to learn.

The bird you posted a picture of is not lavender. He is also not Columbian. Can you tell me what pattern he is? When you used the term Coronation EE, I expected something completely different. I have never seen a lavender bird have cream lacing in the hackles. Your bird does not either.

 

[Indyshent]

Maybe you can't see it in those pictures, but I assure you that he's a lavender Columbian patterned bird if you're looking at the right one. If he's in your hands, he's patterned like all the other Colombian birds I've ever seen. The gray color was present on both of his parents and is definitely lavender as opposed to blue (because I've bred both colors before and should know the difference if the birds are actually in front of my face).

Yes, most articles are written by people that should know what they're talking about on Wikipedia, but as even that article stated, the original version had red, which none of the recreations do. Hence, the term "Coronation" is pretty much meaningless since nobody can seem to agree on what said birds actually looked like. That's the big point I was trying to make. It's not something to get offended over.

Lavender as a color is mostly distinguished from blue by hereditary patterns, so without an understanding of the genetic basis for the color, it often looks indistinguishable from blue, which could be a source of confusion of historical documentation of the breed and color. Hence, why I specified about historical documents and dealing with writings which cannot be verified to have been written by people who certainly know the difference. The 1800's was when poultry fancy and genetics were both getting started in earnest. There were a lot of alleles that hadn't been seen yet and certainly hadn't been explained, so it's perfectly conceivable that depending on the source of the initial information, a relatively simple matter as blue versus lavender could've been mistaken (though the issue of the red tbat

You made no mention of the melanotic gene. Or the difference between concentric penciling and double lacing which are certainly different. Maybe you have weird judges. It's a common thing for judges who aren't familiar with certain breeds and colors to judge them unfairly. However, seeing as how your son apparently keeps both breeds, I'm not sure why you asserted that they were the same when one is plainly labeled partridge (apparently multiple laced) and the other "dark". Barnevelders are double laced and usually the same color and pattern as dark Cornish, yet they're both called by different descriptors.

I'd been trying to make a point that often gets brought up with people just getting into the hobby. A lot of the same colors and patterns get called different terms in different breeds, so it's confusing for people.

I'd said dark Brahmas were comparatively close in color to wild type on a genetic level, which isn't the same as saying they're close to wild type overall. Just talking about divergence in terms of color/pattern mutations. There are certainly colors and patterns which are more complicated. We don't even have all the alleles studied, let alone mapped or properly understood, so it's actually pretty difficult to make hard, fast judgement calls because there's often lurking genetic interactions which are just waiting to confound expectations.


I hope you're happy getting a woman who's battling depression (head injury in a car crash) to unfollow her own thread and get out of birds. I'm not rich enough to buy fancier birds. I can't even enjoy my birds and write notes to myself on my own thread without you coming here, insulting me and my birds and my vision at every opportunity. I'm currently dealing with a plethora of health concerns that make normal day to day functioning difficult when it isn't impossible. I can't walk straight. I can't speak well. I start twutching and droolingm and hitting myself. I can't control basic motor functions periodically throughout any given day. There are times I stop breathing for seemingly no reason. I keep getting shuffled off to doctors who won't listen to me or even run tests because--like you've been doing--they're so sure that I'm wrong but won't bother proving it. It can't be ovarian cancer because I'm too young. It can't be something more than a concussion ( because that's the diagnosis that requires the least effort from a neurologist). I can feel a growing mass on my ovary, but I can't get anyone to run a test, and that's been going on for years.


I don't mind being wrong. That's part of learning.

But you're right. I've got better things to be doing with my non-functioning body, my periodic cognitive impairment, and my puny supply of cash than waste my time caring for chickens and writing anything here. That economic bubble burst about and hundred a fifty years ago with good reason (people like you who thought chickens could be more than chickens, that exhibition fowl really were worth more than any other egg-laying fry pan worthy bird).