Thinking of trying an experiment.

[Folly's place]

In microbiology class, horror stories about very bad outcomes from TASTING a small amount of home canned meat or veggies. Botulism is NOT NICE! Things should be fine almost always, but why chance it? Mary

 

[bobbi-j]

I was wondering about raw pack or cooked first. Cooked would make it easier to remove all the meat....then toss the bones back in for stock....then can some stock separate. @bobbi-j You pack raw, think I remember you once saying you put bones in too? Maybe not. What about liquid in with the raw meat....enough to over meat? Wonders how many pints it would take to can up one chicken? Was perusing what jars I had and found a bunch of pints of peaches from 7 years ago All still sealed...but not thinking I'll eat any....they were not pretty (darkish) then and still are not, probably why they didn't get eaten.

Your chickens might like those peaches. When I raw pack, I don't add any liquid. It creates it's own as it's processing. Last time we did chickens, I did all pints so I had to cut the meat off all the bones. (They were too long to fit in the jar) Then I put the carcasses the stockpot and boiled it the rest of the eat off.When I put it in quarts, I left the meat on the wings, thighs and drumsticks.

From Bobbi-J Nice looking beans, RR! We're about out of the last beans I canned, so it's a bean canning year here. Don't you can chicken broth or stock, too? I did that the last time I did chickens. When I butcher my chickens I cut them into serving pieces and double wrap the breasts, wishbone, drumsticks, and thighs in freezer paper. There are only two of us so that’s plenty of meat for the table. I package the back, wings, neck, gizzard, heart, and feet in a zip-lok type freezer bag. Yeah, I know where the feet have been, but if you scald them without over-scalding they peel fairly easily and the claws twist off. That gets them clean enough for me. But if you over-scald them the skin tears really easily and they are a pain to clean. I bring some water to a boil and set my timer for 15 seconds for young chickens and no more than 20 seconds for old roosters and hens. When I cook the table meat, I save the bones and any cartilage and freeze those. When I have a bag full of those I stick them in a crock pot overnight (14 hours or more), save the liquid, and discard the bones. Some people would call this broth, I don’t. I freeze it. When I cook the carcass in a crock pot I use the water from those bones instead of fresh water unless I’m out. When I make broth I add a dozen or so peppercorns, a bay leaf, a carrot, celery, basil, oregano, maybe thyme or chives or parsley, onion, and garlic. After this is done I strain it through a wire mesh colander to get the bones and meat out. I pick through this bone, meat and veggie stuff to separate the meat. Be careful or you get small bones with the meat. This cooked flavored meat is great for casseroles, tacos, chicken salad, or just on a sandwich for lunch. I save the cooked veggies and use that in my live traps as bait. It’s the best bait I’ve found yet for skunks. I’ve also caught a lot of raccoons, possums, and rats with it. I wrap a fairly small amount in a paper towel to keep it together. After the broth is done I take the fat out. I use one of those de-fatters that has a cork in the spout and let the fat settle to the top. You then pour the broth out from under the fat. If the broth is warm the fat separates out a lot faster than if it is cold. My recipe calls for removing the fat. You could leave the fat in but I don’t know how if that changes processing time. Then I filter it through several layers of cheesecloth before canning it. You could omit this filtering and leave the bits in if you colander is fine enough wire mesh but my wife wants the broth filtered so that’s what she gets. I fill the jars with 1” air gap and process it for 20 minutes for pints at 11.5 pounds. Due to my elevation above sea level I go above the 10 pounds you often read about.

I still can't get past where the feet have been. (Maybe there is still a tiny bit of city left in this girl) Another question - Do you use the meat bits you pick out of the strained veggies right away, or do you freeze or can them? And would it hurt to leave all that stuff in the broth (I suppose at that point it would be called "stock") and can it that way?

In microbiology class, horror stories about very bad outcomes from TASTING a small amount of home canned meat or veggies. Botulism is NOT NICE! Things should be fine almost always, but why chance it? Mary

I understand that. The only things that don't always get cooked before eating are the stewed tomatoes my husband loves and the chicken or beef if I want to use them in a salad or sandwich meat. The beans, especially, are always cooked. I realize there's a risk, but when I hear about E.coli and salmonella recalls on the news so much, I feel that my home-grown, home-canned food has to be safer. I'm willing to take a chance. Until something goes wrong. Then, if it doesn't kill me, I'll think differently.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Do you use the meat bits you pick out of the strained veggies right away, or do you freeze or can them?

I usually freeze it in vacuum sealed bags. It will keep a long time that way. If you just use a zip-loc it will get ice crystals and freezer burn fairly soon.

And would it hurt to leave all that stuff in the broth (I suppose at that point it would be called "stock") and can it that way?

My recipe calls for the bits to be strained out. That way my processing time is only 20 minutes. I don’t know what leaving bits of meat in would do to processing time. It could extend it quite a bit.

 

[lazy gardener]

Re: botulism, no amount of cooking will neutralize the toxins in a contaminated jar of food. (at least that's my understanding). so, without having any experience, I'm wondering if smell, sight and taste will suffice re: canned goods that you would eat cold anyways: like chicken for chx salad, or salsa, or what ever else.

 

[bobbi-j]

Do you use the meat bits you pick out of the strained veggies right away, or do you freeze or can them?

I usually freeze it in vacuum sealed bags. It will keep a long time that way. If you just use a zip-loc it will get ice crystals and freezer burn fairly soon.

And would it hurt to leave all that stuff in the broth (I suppose at that point it would be called "stock") and can it that way?

My recipe calls for the bits to be strained out. That way my processing time is only 20 minutes. I don’t know what leaving bits of meat in would do to processing time. It could extend it quite a bit.

OK, then I will pick the meat bits out, seal and freeze them, and probably feed the veggies to the chickens. Thanks for the information !

Re: botulism, no amount of cooking will neutralize the toxins in a contaminated jar of food.  (at least that's my understanding).  so, without having any experience, I'm wondering if smell, sight and taste will suffice re: canned goods that you would eat cold anyways:  like chicken for chx salad, or salsa, or what ever else.

If I remember right, botulism in green beans is NOT something you can see, smell or taste. That's why it's highly recommended to pressure can them rather than water bath. The high temps from pressure canning will kill the botulism. I always check the meat jars for a seal before opening and eating. I would think if canned meat went bad, it would smell. I hope so, anyway.

 

[aart]

Quote: Do you mean "is NOT something"?

 

[bobbi-j]

Do you mean "is NOT something"?

Yes - nice catch! Thanks for pointing that out. My fingers can't always keep up with my brain. I'll go back and edit.

 

[aart]

Quote: <thumbsup>

Stuck a jar of those old peaches in the fridge....cool treat for chooks tomorrow.

 

[Ridgerunner]

From the CDC, different documents

1st document
Food-Borne Botulism
•Incidence ◦An average of 110 cases of botulism is reported annually in the US. About twenty-five percent of these cases are foodborne botulism.
◦Mean age of infected people is 46 years, with a range from 3 to 78 years.
◦Men and women are affected equally.

•Geographic Distribution ◦Foodborne outbreaks have been reported in 46 states, Puerto Rico, and Washington, DC.
◦Five western states, California, Washington, Colorado, Oregon and Alaska, have accounted for more than half of all reported foodborne outbreaks since 1950.

2nd document
Home Canning and Botulism

Home-canned vegetables are the most common cause of botulism outbreaks in the United States. From 1996 to 2008, there were 116 outbreaks of foodborne botulism reported to CDC. Of the 48 outbreaks that were caused by home-prepared foods, 18 outbreaks (38%), were from home-canned vegetables. These outbreaks often occured because home canners did not follow canning instructions, did not use pressure cookers, ignore signs of food spoilage, or were unaware of the risk of botulism from improperly preserving vegetables.

Use proper home canning techniques
•The best way to prevent foodborne botulism is by carefully following instructions for safe home canning in the USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning.
•Use a pressure canner or cooker, and follow all specified home canning processing times for safe home canning of all foods. ◦Pay special attention to the processing times for low-acid vegetables, such as green beans, carrots, potatoes, and corn.

•Discard all swollen, gassy, or spoiled canned foods. (Find out how to safely dispose of food and cans that may be contaminated.)
•Boil home-processed, low-acid and tomato foods canned foods in a saucepan before serving, even if you detect no signs of spoilage. ◦At altitudes below 1,000 feet, boil foods for 10 minutes.
◦Add 1 minute for each additional 1,000 feet of elevation.

This is me and not the CDC.

Pressure canning is all about botulism. The organism that causes botulism produces an odorless and colorless waste discharge that can paralyze or kill. The conditions inside a jar of food is perfect for the growth of this organism, mainly a low oxygen environment. This organism is fairly heart resistant, you need to get the temperature of the food to 240 degrees F to kill it. The pressure and time for the internal temperature to reach 240 is mainly based on the density of the product. Pints of chicken broth without any meat only take about 20 minutes. Pints of cream style corn take 85 minutes.

Low acid foods, corn, green beans, meat, whatever need to be pressure canned. High acid foods like pickles are OK, the botulism organism cannot live in high acid foods. Jelly, pickles, and such can be water bath canned.

There are people that don’t follow the procedures. From conversations on this forum and the sister gardening forum I suspect there are quite a few across the country yet botulism poisoning is pretty rare. It really doesn’t happen often. But since my granddaughter and others eat food that I can, I’m going to follow procedures. It’s not worth the risk to me and it really isn’t that much harder to do it right. If I do it right I feel very comfortable eating what I can. I do not boil it for ten minutes though, but I do boil it some.

 

[aart]

There was some discussion on pressure vessels with a gauge and with a rocker weight......
.....the one I have, a Fagor Duo, has neither, just a knob 1(low-8psi) and 2(high-15psi).
Not sure how the internal mechanism works, there's a spring in there.
Any thoughts on accuracy?