This is what a balanced layer feed with no treats delivers

[Perris]

I am having trouble always sourcing the the whole grains

Yes, this is a real issue. But the more commercial crap we buy, the harder it will be. Use it or lose it applies.

 

[Perris]

To say it's the feed you would have to split chickens of the same breed in the same kind of environment into groups

Are you aware that the vast majority of research work on feed nutrition has been done on broilers, i.e. chicks up to 6 weeks old, and not on layers? That the industry is aware that the needs and metabolism of hens are not the same as the needs and metabolism of a chick? That the numbers for the ME of different raw materials vary with numerous factors and are inconsistent throughout the industry?

Let me give you some idea of the issues. This from a 2008 paper:
"There is substantial scientific literature available on P requirements of broilers but less on the P requirements of layers and turkeys. Unfortunately, there are large differences among the recommendations given. For example, in 19 papers published since the literature that was used by the NRC (1994), different values for the P requirements in starter phase broiler diets are provided (Angel, 2006)…. the reported differences in requirements remain large…. one salient fact becomes obvious. It is difficult to make comparisons between studies. In P requirement research as well as phytase efficacy work, certain information that has a large impact on the results has to be included in the published work. Information that needs to be included is as follows: animal breed, strain and age, start and end weight, replication and birds/replicate, pen size and animal density, actual mortality and whether the data are corrected for mortality, prior nutrition (especially as it pertains to Ca, P, and vitamin D), age of the breeder flock where chicks came from, feed consumption, formulated and analyzed diet Ca and P, and, if possible, phytate P. Also of importance are diet information specifics that cover formulated diet vitamin D, ME, fiber, all vitamins and microminerals, the amount of each ingredient used, formulated and analyzed diet protein and fat, and light schedule used. Feed additive (coccidiostats, antibiotics, growth-promotants, pro- or prebiotics) information to provide includes the product name, active ingredient, and inclusion level. Details of prevailing environmental conditions, vaccination program used, and finally, if floor pen work is conducted, type of litter used, and whether it has previously been used should also be included…. In addition to the variation in quality of information related to efficacy of phytase, there is no international standard assay for expressing phytase activity (Selle and Ravindran, 2007). This void leads to confusion when analyzing different phytase sources, especially when the same designation of units (phytase units) is used across procedures. Differences in the specifics of the assays (such as buffer, pH, temperature used) can induce a 3- to 4-fold difference in the measured phytase units (Ward and Campbell, 2007). The confusion has only increased in the last couple of years as new Escherichia coli-derived phytases have come on to the market for commercial use. These new enzymes appear to have greater impact on making available other nutrients that can be bound to the phytate molecule such as amino acids, minerals, and carbohydrates (Cowieson et al., 2006; Pirgozliev et al., 2007; Selle and Ravindran, 2007)….
Powers & Angel, A Review of the Capacity for Nutritional Strategies to Address Environmental Challenges in Poultry Production, Poultry Science 2008 https://doi.org/10.3382/ps.2008-00090

 

[Perris]

I think its hard for people to accept because it means they have to change

You hit a nail on the head there.

they also are taught to TRUST the authorities

I think in this case it is more about trusting feed firms' marketing. The authorities do their best to try to keep real nasties out of feed.

I feel grateful that any time I have a question about real life applied skills, farming, etc I can post here and within an hour I'll get help from someone. So I hope you guys see this place as a great place and not as a place to argue.

Yes, BYC is a wonderful resource.

I think we - all of us in this wonderful community - can disagree/ argue and it's healthy. When differences of opinion disappear, it will stop being a useful place to go find advice and answers.

 

[rockethoe]

My birds get only a balanced layers pellets. They don't look like this. Sorry to be harsh on what is usually a very friendly message board, but: you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[Moon Daizy]

This article is useful. @Perris what is your opinion?

https://learnpoultry.com/grains-chickens/

I’ve been reading along here and also your Shadrach thread.

I’m planning on feeding my birds a portion of fermented / sprouted whole grains, vegetable scraps (minus the ones they can’t eat - we now have two compost caddies to separate what goes to which compost bin!), grit, crushed egg shells, and plenty of forage. They have full access to the composting system, purposefully built in their run, so loads of creepy crawlies, and I have raised beds in their run where I am growing grasses and seeds which are wasted by my parrot (mixed grass, millets, sunflowers, buckwheat etc).

I’m hoping to replicate a more natural diet for them through this method.

Is there anything you would add to this?

 

[Moon Daizy]

Another interesting article

https://www.thehappychickencoop.com/making-your-own-chicken-feed/

Quote:

It’s important to acknowledge the elephant in the room before we dig into the nutritional needs of our feather friends:

Chickens aren’t what they used to be. We’ve been feeding our chickens commercial feed optimized for performance for a long time. Chickens have been bred for fast growth and commercial operations.

What I’m getting at is chickens aren’t as easy to feed as they used to be…and generally, it’s all our fault.

…..

You may have noticed that I did not list Broiler chickens as one of the best chickens to feed a homemade feed mixture.

This is because of their high-protein dietary needs. You would be running in circles trying to make sure cornish-crosses are getting what they need, and financially it probably isn’t worth it.

On the other hand, Layers still have protein needs, but they are not as dependent on it as the commercially bred broiler chicken.

So, make it easier on both you and your chickens and stick with breeds that are still considered to be quite hardy and not overbred.

End quote.


I think if people want to feed their chickens commercial feed, that’s fine for them. And as this article says, there are some breeds who have been bred to need this, as those chickens are not like what chickens would be. Broilers, in particular.

But for those of us who want to choose more foraging backyard chicken breeds and feed without commercial feeds, then that’s fine too. I don’t want to pick a fight or argue with anyone - surely it’s down to personal choice. A bit like … there are people out there who want to eat ready prepared meals every day, and there are people who buy organic real foods, and make their food from scratch every day, and there are people who do a bit of both.

 

[Perris]

My birds get only a balanced layers pellets. They don't look like this. Sorry to be harsh on what is usually a very friendly message board, but: you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Since you are the person who put me on to Leonard Robinson's Modern Poultry Husbandry 1948 (via a photo of a table on laying tests of different breeds on p.39), which you described as the best book you knew on the topic (and I concur with the judgement; it's a very good book, in the pre 1961 editions), I'm quite surprised to read that you only feed your birds layers pellets.

You are of course free to feed them whatever you want. But don't confuse your ignorance with mine.

 

[Perris]

This article is useful. @Perris what is your opinion?

https://learnpoultry.com/grains-chickens/

I’ve been reading along here and also your Shadrach thread.

I’m planning on feeding my birds a portion of fermented / sprouted whole grains, vegetable scraps (minus the ones they can’t eat - we now have two compost caddies to separate what goes to which compost bin!), grit, crushed egg shells, and plenty of forage. They have full access to the composting system, purposefully built in their run, so loads of creepy crawlies, and I have raised beds in their run where I am growing grasses and seeds which are wasted by my parrot (mixed grass, millets, sunflowers, buckwheat etc).

I’m hoping to replicate a more natural diet for them through this method.

Is there anything you would add to this?

Rather than the advice on your linked article, I think this is a better model to follow :
"Under choice feeding or “free-choice feeding” birds are usually offered a choice between three types of feedstuffs: (a) an energy source (e.g. maize, rice bran, sorghum or wheat); (b) a protein source (e.g. soyabean meal, meat meal, fish meal or coconut meal) plus vitamins and minerals and (c), in the case of laying hens, calcium in granular form (i.e. oyster-shell grit). This system differs from the modern commercial practice of offering a complete diet comprising energy and protein sources, ground and mixed together. Under the complete diet system, birds are mainly only able to exercise their appetite for energy. When the environmental temperature varies, the birds either over- or under-consume protein and calcium. The basic principle behind practising choice feeding with laying hens is that individual hens are able to select from the various feed ingredients on offer and compose their own diet, according to their actual needs and production capacity. " 'Practical and economic advantages of choice feeding systems for laying poultry' World Poultry Science 2019 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1079/WPS20020018
If you offer a variety of grains and switch it up now and then, and similarly vary the protein source, you and your birds will be fine, in all likelihood. If and when a deficiency arises, the signs can be read and the deficiency addressed. I gave all the links at the end of my article on https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/ which I just updated with another year's results here https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/wholesome-homemade-feed-2.79307/

 

[Perris]

Another interesting article

https://www.thehappychickencoop.com/making-your-own-chicken-feed/

Quote:

It’s important to acknowledge the elephant in the room before we dig into the nutritional needs of our feather friends:

Chickens aren’t what they used to be. We’ve been feeding our chickens commercial feed optimized for performance for a long time. Chickens have been bred for fast growth and commercial operations.

What I’m getting at is chickens aren’t as easy to feed as they used to be…and generally, it’s all our fault.

…..

You may have noticed that I did not list Broiler chickens as one of the best chickens to feed a homemade feed mixture.

This is because of their high-protein dietary needs. You would be running in circles trying to make sure cornish-crosses are getting what they need, and financially it probably isn’t worth it.

On the other hand, Layers still have protein needs, but they are not as dependent on it as the commercially bred broiler chicken.

So, make it easier on both you and your chickens and stick with breeds that are still considered to be quite hardy and not overbred.

End quote.


I think if people want to feed their chickens commercial feed, that’s fine for them. And as this article says, there are some breeds who have been bred to need this, as those chickens are not like what chickens would be. Broilers, in particular.

But for those of us who want to choose more foraging backyard chicken breeds and feed without commercial feeds, then that’s fine too. I don’t want to pick a fight or argue with anyone - surely it’s down to personal choice. A bit like … there are people out there who want to eat ready prepared meals every day, and there are people who buy organic real foods, and make their food from scratch every day, and there are people who do a bit of both.

I don't think the selective breeding has had much impact on the sort of chickens that backyard chicken keepers keep. And even their genes revert very quickly if they are robust enough to reproduce. It's another red herring. Few people here harvest their meat birds at 42 days, or get 300+ eggs a year from their layers.

 

[Debbie292d]

That chicken is not my chicken. It has come from an industrial egg unit. It is a commercial chicken. It has been raised to be a commercial egg layer. It has been fed industry standard feed to maximise its egg production. That is to say, it has been fed commercial layer feed and nothing else.

I do not understand why some of you don't get this.

You have no idea what its been fed or not fed. You can assume or guess, but then to take a picture of a molting or severly undernourished chicken and make a statement that it looks like that because it doesn't get treats is misleading.

My chickens and a lot of other chickens don't get treats per se either and they sure as heck don't look like that.