This is what a balanced layer feed with no treats delivers

[HollowOfWisps]

For me personally, I find the “sweet spot” somewhere in the middle of the opposing viewpoints. If you ask my children what is the key to life they will sigh and say “Balance” because I am a firm believer in retaining balance with everything. I have found that when it comes to raising everything from livestock to my own kids creating a synergetic environment and balanced diet are important because I do not want everyone and everything under my care to just survive, but also thrive. For my chickens this means:
1. 24/7 access to clean water
2. 24/7 access to 20% Protein feed and oyster shells.
3. Spacious ventilated indoor access to get out of the elements and be locked away safely at night.
4. Daylight access to 30 acres of grasses, legumes, orchard, my garden and oh so many bugs.

Now my way might not be everyone’s way and that’s okay. There are pro’s and con’s to the many methods of raising chickens. You have to choose what works best for you with the resources you have at your disposal. Sometimes that means some trial and error too. I think if you have chronically ill chickens or seem to be constantly hitting road blocks with raising them then maybe you need to take a step back and see if there is something that you can improve/change with your methods. However, if Person A has the resources to solely free range and Person B wants to keep their chickens in the Fort Knox of run/coops fed solely a commercial diet, but they both have healthy chickens then I am happy for both of them!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm not going to read the rest of this thread past page three. What I think that photo shows is a commercial hybrid layer bred to be a fast molter that has finished a laying cycle and is molting.

Serious question - they breed that trait into commercial layers to more easily identify when egg production drops so they can remove/repurpose them rather than continuing to feed an "unproductive" bird?

If so, that was pretty intelligent of someone.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Serious question - they breed that trait into commercial layers to more easily identify when egg production drops so they can remove/repurpose them rather than continuing to feed an "unproductive" bird?

If so, that was pretty intelligent of someone.

Not to identify unproductive birds. They are looking at total flock production. After a flock lays a certain amount of time without a break overall production drops and the quality of the eggs deteriorates. The profitability drops because they still have to feed the birds but they get fewer commercial quality eggs to sell.

They keep track of how many eggs they sell. At some point they have to determine if they replace the entire flock or force them to molt to replenish their body so egg production and quality goes back up. I don't know what metrics they use to determine if it is better to replace them or force a molt. They never force a second molt on a flock. Production drops off too much for them to be profitable after a second molt.

There are genetics that determine how fast the feathers fall out when they are molting. It is not how fast they grow back after they fall out, it is how fast they fall out so they can start to grow back. Some chickens lose feathers so slowly you can't tell they are molting by looking at them. That's why I often ask if people see feathers flying around as a sign that they are molting. But some lose feathers by the bunch. The hens can look bald.

A lot of the chickens in that molting contest are not the commercial layers and are fed very well. They can look very scrawny with bare spots like that. That's what they look like under their feathers.

 

[Kimmyh51]

Imo, hens fed only layer feed may have laying related issues, as some chickens def need more calcium than in commercial feed. But you see egg shell problems, or egg bound, or other reproductive issues, not feathers and general condition like the birds in that pic.

I know someone who runs a rescue near me and they take and rehome a lot of commercial layers after they are considered too old to be profitable (i think 1-2=yrs),(usually not colony or even barn, but normally ex free range layer chickens). Anyway that is typical of the condition they get chickens arriving in.

Not sure why, but if I had to guess, I am thinking stress, competition, maybe stress due to boredom or bullying?

Or other psychological or physiological issues directly related to being raised in a commercial situation with massive numbers of other chickens, maybe due to no real care in their interactions with the humans caring for them, (ie even if fed and sheltered well and not mistreated), they are simply another product and not ever recognised or treated as individuals by those feeding and sheltering them.. Birds pick up on that, Im sure they know when they are just considered as a number or a product and that no one can recognise them from any other bird in the egg farm..
Who knows what that does to your mental health, knowing you don't matter to anyone?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Not to identify unproductive birds. They are looking at total flock production. After a flock lays a certain amount of time without a break overall production drops and the quality of the eggs deteriorates. The profitability drops because they still have to feed the birds but they get fewer commercial quality eggs to sell.

They keep track of how many eggs they sell. At some point they have to determine if they replace the entire flock or force them to molt to replenish their body so egg production and quality goes back up. I don't know what metrics they use to determine if it is better to replace them or force a molt. They never force a second molt on a flock. Production drops off too much for them to be profitable after a second molt.

There are genetics that determine how fast the feathers fall out when they are molting. It is not how fast they grow back after they fall out, it is how fast they fall out so they can start to grow back. Some chickens lose feathers so slowly you can't tell they are molting by looking at them. That's why I often ask if people see feathers flying around as a sign that they are molting. But some lose feathers by the bunch. The hens can look bald.

A lot of the chickens in that molting contest are not the commercial layers and are fed very well. They can look very scrawny with bare spots like that. That's what they look like under their feathers.

Thanks, I imagined it wrong. Assumed they would be rotating out birds as they begn molt and rotaing in new layers to replace on a rolling basis, rather than complete turnovers of the housed flock. I'm sure there are trade offs to be balanced for both methods.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

1. 24/7 access to clean water
2. 24/7 access to 20% Protein feed and oyster shells.
3. Spacious ventilated indoor access to get out of the elements and be locked away safely at night.
4. Daylight access to 30 acres of grasses, legumes, orchard, my garden and oh so many bugs.

With 24/7 access to feed and range, how do you control rodents/vermin?

I do much of what you do - and similar situation (ok, my Orchard is a work in progress), but I feed once daily, monitor intake, and adjust based on how much is left after the initial rush/how quickly they consume everything and mob me for more.

Its the only way I've been able to pretend to control the tree rat populations. Had those and mice both when I had Cx and fed ad libitum. and the snakes the mice attracted, too...

 

[HollowOfWisps]

With 24/7 access to feed and range, how do you control rodents/vermin?

I do much of what you do - and similar situation (ok, my Orchard is a work in progress), but I feed once daily, monitor intake, and adjust based on how much is left after the initial rush/how quickly they consume everything and mob me for more.

Its the only way I've been able to pretend to control the tree rat populations. Had those and mice both when I had Cx and fed ad libitum. and the snakes the mice attracted, too...

There is a huge feral cat population where I live and one of them had kittens in my barn. Almost daily I find one of the cats with a barn swallow or a mouse. Since they showed up the only mice I see are dead ones.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

My "feral" barn cat spends the day sleeping on the top of the couch where he can look out the window at the bird feeder. ...and most of the night sleeping in bed between the wife and I.

If he wasn't so insufferably cute I'd not permit him to shirk his responsibilities like that.

Just know how lucky you are to have working cats.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

My "feral" barn cat spends the day sleeping on the top of the couch where he can look out the window at the bird feeder. ...and most of the night sleeping in bed between the wife and I.

If he wasn't so insufferably cute I'd not permit him to shirk his responsibilities like that.

Just know how lucky you are to have working cats.

If I didn’t have dogs inside I’m pretty sure I would be this one’s human servant and he would be king of the castle. Usually I am fine with giving away the kittens, but this one I am having trouble parting with. He is also massive compared to his other litter mates (even the other boys) so I might just have to keep him

 

[U_Stormcrow]

If I didn’t have dogs inside I’m pretty sure I would be this one’s human servant and he would be king of the castle. Usually I am fine with giving away the kittens, but this one I am having trouble parting with. He is also massive compared to his other litter mates (even the other boys) so I might just have to keep him
View attachment 3854778

He's bigger than my cat (2yrs this October).