Thoughts on organic chicken feed. What is your opinion?

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm OK with population reduction, organic or not. and yes, my Living Will, Advance directives, etc are all on file. Otherwise, I'm trying not to take up much space, and producing what I can locally.

Sustainable practices to support 8 billion people at standards enjoyed in first world countries don't exist. I'm not convinced they can support 8 billion humans at the standards of developing countries, either. No fault of the practices, the population drives the problems.

 

[3KillerBs]

Redistribution of food to people who need it

"Redistribution" implies that there is some authority out there officially distributing food and giving people their rations.

While areas that do not have political or economic freedom operate under different rules, in the free world people do not have to wait for food to be distributed to them. They merely have to work to earn the money to buy food or expend the work necessary to grow it themselves.

Some choose to work harder than others. Some are gifted with talents society chooses to reward more generously than others. No one is distributing anything to be "redistributed".

 

[NestingMillenial]

Redistribution can totally operate through the free market, if the idea of a government finally making themselves useful by supporting the societal good is not the preferred way.

Food deserts and fresh food/produce access are still a problem for many even in the free world (not the same kind of problems as in the third world, agreed, but still a real, concrete problem). In the US close to 1/3 of all food produce is wasted before reaching any consumer's plate, so there is definitely an opportunity there to do something about it. It is absolutely possible to put price tags on that and to make it part of the capitalist paradigm, without needing any governmental involvement. But that's beside the point and starting to really be far off topic. My point was to say that if we are not going to get the surplus food to those who need it, given we are already wasting a shit ton of it, and since intensive agriculture and GMO are not freeing land for other uses... then we really don't need to be worried about buying non-GMO and organic products (if we so chose) resulting in food being taken out of anyone's mouth -> which was the point the comment I was replying to was making.

 

[3KillerBs]

In the US close to 1/3 of all food produce is wasted before reaching any consumer's plate, so there is definitely an opportunity there to do something about it.

Waste is the measure of abundance.

Were we to eliminate waste we would be imposing scarcity and, consequently, raising prices.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Redistribution can totally operate through the free market, if the idea of a government finally making themselves useful by supporting the societal good is not the preferred way.

Food deserts and fresh food/produce access are still a problem for many even in the free world (not the same kind of problems as in the third world, agreed, but still a real, concrete problem). In the US close to 1/3 of all food produce is wasted before reaching any consumer's plate, so there is definitely an opportunity there to do something about it. It is absolutely possible to put price tags on that and to make it part of the capitalist paradigm, without needing any governmental involvement. But that's beside the point and starting to really be far off topic. My point was to say that if we are not going to get the surplus food to those who need it, given we are already wasting a shit ton of it, and since intensive agriculture and GMO are not freeing land for other uses... then we really don't need to be worried about buying non-GMO and organic products (if we so chose) resulting in food being taken out of anyone's mouth -> which was the point the comment I was replying to was making.

Your language choices reveal your sources, and your national focus. I'm not going to dip into policy and entertain myself. BYC isn't the place, though I do find your view of government to be "charming", and I notice you failed to mention the Government's place in mandating that much of that wasted food not reach the table.

Yes, I live in a food desert, by any of the numerous definitons bandied about by those who wish to use buzz words to advance their preferred policies - that is I'm in an economically depressed area of the country with average incomes well below the poverty level, and the closest supermarket (1) is 25 miles away. The next two supermarkets are w/i 30 miles, a community Walmart and a Piggly Wiggly (yes, they still exist). Roughly 9,000 of my neighbors (in a county of about 20,000) share that designation with me, though some are obviously closer to one of the stores or another.

Newsflash, there aren't any fast food joints out here either, or loads of processed foods. "Food Deserts" as a term is defined in ways to target inner city areas, and the policies most frequently touted out to, supposedly, address "Food Deserts" are almost exclusively panem intended to purchase votes for one of this Nation's dominant political parties.

None of which has anything at all to do with organic chicken feed.

Yes, I frequently vote against that dominant party. I also frequently vote against their equally dominant opponent.

 

[Iluveggers]

In Michael Pollan’s book ‘An Omnivore’s Dilemma’, he discusses the different supply chains involved to get a conventional, large scale organic, local small scale sort of organic, and homegrown/foraged/hunted meal to the table. While it was published a while back and supply chains have probably altered somewhat in that time, it still changed the way I think about conventional vs organic. If we are really interested in doing the best good for the earth and our health, eating seasonally and locally is the best route to go.

Conventional ag is extremely efficient but exacts a heavy cost environmentally, and not just in the form of glycophosphate. The damage done to peoples’ health from the heavily processed foods created and distributed by big ag cannot be ignored.

Large scale organic can exact a heavy environmental cost as well, just in different ways. Few small farms can afford the organic certification, so you have big conglomerate companies (often branches of big ag companies) with very little transparency. Organic produce is often shipped further (read higher use of fossil fuels contributing to greenhouse gasses) because there are fewer farms producing that type of produce. Large scale organic creates heavily processed foods that aren’t any better for you than the conventional garbage.

Small scale local may not be able to switch over to organic for cost prohibitive reasons, much less afford the certification by the USDA, but you have transparency that isn’t available with big ag or big organic. You can get to know your local farmers, ask questions, see their operation, etc. You’ll pay more because you’re paying for the actual cost of producing that food, rather than something artificially low in price because of subsidies. You’ll also have to eat seasonally, which means giving up eggs year round and strawberries in January.

Growing/foraging/hunting your own food will be the best option but not always a practical one, since people have to work and whatnot. But it will be the best for you because you know exactly what went into it, and it will be picked at peak nutrition. If not, you have only yourself to blame.

I’d rather go with a good quality feed that’s made from locally grown grains purchased from a local store than something stamped ‘organic’. My husband studied environmental soil and water science and mentioned what others have said here - organic isn’t a guarantee of better, it’s just a guarantee of different farming practices. Unless you’re able to trace the sources of your chicken feed to the farms they were grown on and look into how those crops were grown, you have no way to really know if it’s actually benefitting your health or the environment.

There is a balance to be found. The ideals of organic farming are good ones. I think it’s counterproductive to shame people who are doing what they thing is best for their health and the ones they care for. Getting defensive because someone disagrees with the conclusions you have made based on the information you have is also counterproductive. We should be willing to learn from each other, consider new information from a variety of sources, make the choices we think are best for our particular situation, and allow others the grace to do the same.

Nobody is telling you guys to go change your practices and buy organic. We have all agreed that this is a personal choice and right now it comes at a premium that not everyone is willing or able to pay. But claiming that it is in any way worse, or even on par with conventional agriculture, be it from a health, environmental or other ethical (like seed ownership) standpoint, is just not true.

Thank you. I feel exactly the same.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

...and credit to you for at least tacitly acknowledging that, in the history of this world, no government has ever done as you propose for any significant period of time.

 

[NestingMillenial]

Your language choices reveal your sources, and your national focus. I'm not going to dip into policy and entertain myself. BYC isn't the place, though I do find your view of government to be "charming", and I notice you failed to mention the Government's place in mandating that much of that wasted food not reach the table.
[...]
None of which has anything at all to do with organic chicken feed.

Don't judge me on buzz words or wording though: I'm a foreigner and words I hear often just become those I use. I do not always use the words with any political connotation in mind (and that has earned me misunderstandings in the past, but it's hard for non-US people to always know for sure what words are associated to what history, when we were not there when that history happened)

But agreed with you, we're getting off track, it was not my intent either!

 

[Iluveggers]

I also wanted to add, there’s a few small farms around me who have taken a “farmers pledge” to grow their crops organically without the label, and using regenerative & sustainable practices. I will seek them out at farmers markets and pay more for their product because I know them and appreciate how difficult it is for a small local farm like that to make any profit.

 

[NestingMillenial]

I also wanted to add, there’s a few small farms around me who have taken a “farmers pledge” to grow their crops organically without the label, and using regenerative & sustainable practices. I will seek them out at farmers markets and pay more for their product because I know them and appreciate how difficult it is for a small local farm like that to make any profit.

That's a really good point: farmers in the US have to pay to get and maintain (soil sample testing, etc) the organic label, and for small farms it can be prohibitive.

I agree with you and, I think it was Solanaceae and TXchickmum, that often local farms that operate more traditionally/sustainably without any label trump actual labels. When I lived in East TN, we had a (large) bunch of small scale farms who made their own mock organic label and would basically randomly test each other instead of involving any other agency, so it was cheaper for them and I believe they went farther than the actual organic label.

Unfortunately, I checked out the local mill in my current area and their pellet bags where at $45+ T_T