Thoughts on this article? It says DON'T give ACV?

[MeepBeep]

Also note the article was written by one who sells a product that could be damaged in an acidic environment.

Their product(s) are made from plastic with your standard vertical nipples, neither will be hurt by the lower PH if ACV or another acid was added to the water to lower the PH...

In fact from my experience with vertical nipples and well water before I stopped using them and switched to horizontal is that the lowering of the PH by addition of any acid actually helped prevent calcium, iron and slime from coating the insides of those nipples, something that caused them to continuously drip...

 

[RonP]

Their product(s) are made from plastic with your standard vertical nipples, neither will be hurt by the lower PH if ACV or another acid was added to the water to lower the PH...

In fact from my experience with vertical nipples and well water before I stopped using them and switched to horizontal is that the lowering of the PH by addition of any acid actually helped prevent calcium, iron and slime from coating the insides of those nipples, something that caused them to continuously drip...

A quote from the article's author:

ChickenWatererMarch 10, 2013 at 6:50 PMMelinda - Most people add 2 tablespoons of ACV per gallon. This lowers the pH of the water to something like 2.0. That is fairly acidic. For perspective Coca Cola has a pH of 2.5. At that level of acidity you are going to corrode any iron or stainless steel that comes into contact with the water. We're doing some research on the exact impact of such high acid levels on the BriteTap valves, but it will be a while before we publish the results of our study. Until we have completed these tests, we would recommend dialing back the ACV to 1/2 Tablespoon per gallon of water. The pH of this dilution would be something like 5.0, still acid but not strongly so. At a pH of 5.0 there would be no impact iron or steel parts. That notwithstanding, we are not big fans of adding ACV as you can tell from the article above. - See more at: http://blog.chickenwaterer.com/2012/12/dont-use-apple-cider-vinegar-acv-in.html#sthash.yPmRb5P3.dpuf

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I have never used ACV, I have never had crop problems or digestion troubles in my birds, figure why do stuff that's unnecessary. My chickens get enough good bacteria scratching around.

 

[MeepBeep]

ChickenWatererMarch 10, 2013 at 6:50 PMMelinda - Most people add 2 tablespoons of ACV per gallon. This lowers the pH of the water to something like 2.0. That is fairly acidic.

They are scientifically incorrect in many respects, of their claims...

At that level of acidity you are going to corrode any iron or stainless steel that comes into contact with the water.

This is incorrect and here is why...

ACV has a pH of about 2.9 ( http://www.silvermedicine.org/apple-cider-vinegar.html )

We use this calculator to find the dilution pH of acid in a neutral 7 pH water ( http://rechneronline.de/chemie-rechner/ph-dilution.php )

2 tablespoons is 1 oz there are 128 oz in a gallon...

So we plug the numbers in the calculator and we get a final pH of your typical ACV in water dosage....

As you can see the final pH is about 4.713 depending on your particular water and ACV pH, this is exponentially distant from their claimed 2.0 pH... In fact their false claim of a final pH of as low as 2.0 should be obvious, when pure ACV only has a pH of 2.9 on average...

So ironically at the 2 tablespoon dosage we are actually very close to the 5.0 pH they suggest you maintain...

The pH of this dilution would be something like 5.0, still acid but not strongly so. At a pH of 5.0 there would be no impact iron or steel parts.

But in the same respect I must again correct them for the unscientific misinformation on stainless corrosion overall in regards to acetic acid...

The vertical nipples are made from stainless steel (albeit likely a low grade), not carbon steel nor iron and are thus have an extremely high resistance to acids and even bases... 2 tablespoons of ACV in 1 gallon of water is far from pure acetic acid (even pure acetic acid has minimal effect on most stainless steel) in fact using your average 5% acetic acid ACV, at 2 tablespoons diluted in 1 gallon of water results in a 0.078% acetic acid solution, not even a 1% acidic acid solution...

Thus in all essence the addition of ACV should have about zero effect on the stainless steel parts of the nipples over the expected lifetime of the product, regardless of the hyperbole they claim...

 

[glib]

There is that, plus my water pH is 9.2. 1 tbsp per gallon takes it to about 5. I need 2 or 3 tbsp per quart to take it to the 3.7 range.

 

[RonP]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeepBeep


They are scientifically incorrect in many respects, of their claims...
This is incorrect and here is why...

Thank you for sharing that...

The original poster requested thoughts on this article as it seems to contradict other opinions on the use of AVC.

I say opinions, because as others have stated, little substantiated research or studies have demonstrated the beneficial use of AVC and backyard flocks.

My original post was not meant to insight a scientific debate about the inaccuracies within the article, simply to point out to the op that this article was admittedly written with extreme prejudice.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

The following is a partial quote from a 2011 article in World Poultry. I read it a few years ago when it was published which is why I suggested ACV may help as well.
Here's the link but if you don't have an account you may not be able to read it.

http://www.worldpoultry.net/Breeder...-damage-is-emerging-in-laying-hens-WP008719W/

"
Kidney damage is emerging in laying hens

Apr 4, 2011 13199 8
Kidney damage heavily influences the welfare of laying hens and eventually may even lead to mortality. This can be avoided, however. The best way to prevent the formation of kidney stones is supplementing poultry diets with acidifiers.

By Dr Hicham Sid and Dr Amine Fettah , University of Blida, Department of Veterinary Sciences, Algeria
Kidney damage (urolithiasis) is a degenerative renal disease involving urolith formation in the ureters of laying hens. It may be associated with multiple etiologies (high dietary calcium, low dietary phosphorous and nephropathogenic IBV). Kidney lesions and visceral gout are among the most commonly diagnosed causes of mortality in poultry. The kidneys are involved in a wide range of essential functions. Therefore it is not surprising that kidney dysfunction can cause profound problems for the poultry industry.

Urolithiasis is defined as an acquired degenerative kidney disease of pullets and laying hens involving focal mineralisation of the kidneys, progressive obstruction of the ureters by uroliths (kidney stones), and kidney atrophy of the site of ureteral obstruction combined with compensatory hypertrophy by the undamaged portions of the kidneys. This condition is associated to multiple etiologies; it is primarily observed in layer hens and induces an increased mortality and a decrease in egg production. Death occurs due to uricemia when functional kidney mass is insufficient to sustain normal metabolism.

Causes of urolithiasis
Urolithiasis is caused by pathophysiological interactions between several factors:

• Excess dietary calcium and inadequate dietary available phosphorus
Calcium and phosphorus are very closely related to each other, and the deficiency or excess of one can interfere with the proper utilisation of the other. The disturbed balance of these minerals in diet can result in various pathological conditions including renal failure and development of gout. The combination of high dietary Ca and low aP (available phosphorus) during pullet growout triggers urolithiasis in both pullets and laying hens. It also was of interest that the combination of high dietary Ca and normal aP also triggers a significant incidence of urolithiasis in hens, but this kidney damage remains “hidden” during pullet grow out.

• Nephropathogenic strains of infectious bronchitis virus (IBV)
These were isolated during many urolithiasis outbreaks. IBV may cause kidney damage without necessarily causing respiratory symptoms or problems with eggshell quality, it usually does not cause urolithiasis during pullet growout but it may trigger urolithiasis when pullets are fed high calcium diets.

• Water deprivation
This is suspected of triggering urolithiasis in commercial flocks, it possibly causes urolithiasis when fluid flow through the kidneys is decreased.

Dietary acidification treats urolithiasis
Supplementing poultry diets with “acidifiers” (ammonium chloride, ammonium sulphate) is useful to reduce the urine pH and prevent kidney stone formation; it may also increase water consumption, urine flow and manure moisture. Dietary supplementation with 0.5% ammonium sulphate has become the treatment of choice for dissolving existing uroliths and preventing new uroliths from forming in flocks experiencing an outbreak of urolithiasis. The treatment must continue for the entire remainder of the production cycle. Otherwise, uroliths will begin to form once again in hens with damaged kidneys, and within two weeks after acidifier withdrawal substantial urolithiasis mortality can be expected to resume.

 

[MeepBeep]

The following is a partial quote from a 2011 article in World Poultry.  I read it a few years ago when it was published which is why I suggested ACV may help as well.

Note that in said article it only suggest acidifiers and specifically states ammonium chloride and ammonium sulphate not the touted Apple Cider with Mother's, not saying ACV won't have similar effects but the study was not about ACV...

Also note that the use of acidifiers as suggested in the article was to help with urolithiasis a mostly preventable problem if you simply provide a proper diet and water in the first place...

And this is what has been touched on previous, there are limited to no studies showing the ACV specifically has any true benefits...

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Agreed about the water and proper diet. However, after reading tens of thousands of posts here, it's clear many don't provide the proper diet.

In the commercial poultry industry, it is much easier to augment the feed. The water is an automated system that wouldn't benefit or even be possible with ACV.

It was a study, which means that,' there have been no studies' is untrue.

Acidifiers are acidifiers whether in the water or feed. I'm just suggesting, for those that feed 4% calcium to mixed flocks, ACV could be a benefit.

A backyard poultry person might find ACV an easier resource than figuring out how much ammonium sulphate to add to the feed.

It's important to note that all feeds currently available are based on what is needed in the commercial industry, not backyard chickens. That's all most people have to work with. They don't have their own feed mill to tweek recipes for their birds based on their needs.

 

[MeepBeep]

Acidifiers are acidifiers whether in the water or feed.

It's not that black and white and actually is false in this instance, many organic acid based foods like ACV even though they are acids are considered alkalinizer foods, this is because once they are consumed/metabolized they end up having an alkalizing effect in the body and never act as acidifiers...

Thus claiming ACV has the same dietary 'acidifier' effect as ammonium chloride or ammonium sulphate IMO should not be made, and this is why I beg to differ if that study is even applicable to ACV...

If you doubt what I just stated is true about acid foods actually being alkalinzers feel free to Google away and confirm further...

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/natur...dic-plant-based-foods-that-alkalize-the-body/