Timeline of internal laying - UPDATE

[Happy Chooks]

I have a 3 year old hatchery buttercup that I suspect is internally laying. She came back from her molt fine, and started laying again. She laid fine (not everyday, but normal pattern) for 16 days. Then she quit laying completely. I would notice that she was spending time in the nest box, but nothing was coming of it. 5 days after she stopped laying, I witnessed her lay a yolk only with a membrane around it. When I brought it inside and opened it, it had that half cooked scrambled egg look to it. That was 2 weeks ago. I have found one other membrane only "egg" dropped from the roost in that time. She is still spending time in the nest box, though nothing comes of it. She's eating, drinking and acting fine. Her comb is still nice and red.

So my question is, if she is internally laying, roughly how long is it until infection sets in (peritonitis) and how long does she have to live? What symptoms will show up that I can know that she is for a fact internally laying?

 

[speckledhen]

I've never known for sure if the infection starts first or the internal laying starts first. Really, it's a moot point. Either will kill her. The only real thing you can do, in my experience, is hit her with a heavy round of penicillin (meaning about 1 cc per day for 3-4 days, which is about a double dose), then wait. Sometimes, if an infection is just beginning, it will knock it out and help with fluid buildup, but it will recur, no doubt about it.


I've had one live 8 months after acting the way you describe, all the while, building up masses of cheesy gunk in her oviducts and abdomen. She was full of the stuff, poor thing. She was one of those we necropsied so we knew what happened, in hindsight.

There are other things that can cause outward symptoms similar to internal laying, but with the shell-less eggs and the sitting on the nests without producing anything like your hen is doing, it's pretty much a given.

 

[dawg53]

There are too many variables for a specific timeline. There are different strains of ecoli that cause infection, whether it goes septic or not. There could be sudden death, or death will occur at a later time. The outcome is the same. If caught right away, baytril would be used to treat ecoli bacteria, no guarantees though for any meds.

 

[Happy Chooks]

So, if I give her an antibiotic, is there a chance she will be "cured", or does it just postpone the inevitable? Will she lay eggs again if treated? (not sure I want to consume eggs from a hen treated with antibiotics - but I could always throw them out) I don't want to prolong her suffering, but I don't want to cause her suffering either.

Cyn....if I give her the penicillin, is it via injection? I assume I get it at the feed store?

Dawg.....it's really nice to see you back here. We've missed you. If I do the Baytril, how much and how is it given? Where do I get it?

The only antibiotic I have on hand is tetracycline powder - never have used it.


Thank you both for your input here - I really appreciate it.

 

[bawkbawkbawk]

I don't think the antibiotic alone will do it. I think you have to drain the fluid from her abdomen also. I've seen mention of people doing it themselves but we took our internal layer to the vet to have it done.

The vet also administered Lupron shots to keep the hen from laying - I think once they are internal layers, they can never lay normally again. It was very expensive but we kept our little EE going for six months or so that way. She died a few weeks ago but it didn't appear to be from the internal laying - she just stopped walking and after an x-ray the vet said her hip joint had dissolved. No idea if the two issues are linked or not.

Is your bird walking strangely? That and the "wind eggs" were my first indication that the internal laying had begun again - the fluid build-up makes their gait a bit slower and more awkward. Whenever one of my hens starts moving slowly I hold my breath until she lays an egg.

 

[Happy Chooks]

I don't think the antibiotic alone will do it. I think you have to drain the fluid from her abdomen also. I've seen mention of people doing it themselves but we took our internal layer to the vet to have it done.

The vet also administered Lupron shots to keep the hen from laying - I think once they are internal layers, they can never lay normally again. It was very expensive but we kept our little EE going for six months or so that way. She died a few weeks ago but it didn't appear to be from the internal laying - she just stopped walking and after an x-ray the vet said her hip joint had dissolved. No idea if the two issues are linked or not.

Is your bird walking strangely? That and the "wind eggs" were my first indication that the internal laying had begun again - the fluid build-up makes their gait a bit slower and more awkward. Whenever one of my hens starts moving slowly I hold my breath until she lays an egg.

No, she's not walking strangely, nor does it appear that she has fluid buildup.

Did your vet confirm your hen had internal laying? Sounds an awful lot like ascites, which I have dealt with. Though I guess it's possible that the ending is the same for both issues.

 

[speckledhen]

Once it begins, nothing will "cure" it. I don't care what any vet says, I've been there way too many times. I've drained them, given penicillin, etc, etc, etc, with many hens.

Yes, the PenG is through injection. Most every feed store has it in their fridge. Let it come up to room temp and inject it slowly into the breast muscle, alternating sides each day you give it.

It is a chronic condition, meaning it will recur. If you follow Ivy's thread and Olivia's, you'll see what I went through with draining plus antibiotics and all it did was postpone the inevitable. Olivia never laid another egg once the cycle began. Ivy came back, laid an egg or two, relapsed, was treated, laid one egg, relapsed again and eventually succumbed to her fate. She was amazingly resilient-no other hens I had ever actually laid eggs after all this crud began except for her, but as you see, it is chronic once it starts.


Eventually as it gets worse, they will begin to lose weight in spite of a good appetite. They will become very weak at the end, then pass on. Some don't drag on that long--my first ever death from EYP was sudden, with no lead in.

Ascites can be part of internal laying, part of ovarian carcinoma, so there is no way to separate it from those two. They can fill with fluid with both of those or just have fluid. I've never had one with just plain ascites. It was always as part of the infection or organ shutdown.



https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=362422

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=195347

 

[Happy Chooks]

Thank you for all the information. I think I will let her be until her quality of life is no longer there - then put her down. I don't really see the point of treating if it's only going to delay the same ending. I don't want to put her through that.

 

[bawkbawkbawk]

Yes, my vet confirmed internal laying. Found all the "scrambled egg" stuff inside of my hen and there was a lot of fluid. The first symptom had been that she laid "wind eggs", small, shell-less eggs with just the membrane around them. When I researched shell-less eggs, everything I saw suggested that they are harmless - they are not, or at least, not in this case. They were an indicator that something was very wrong.

As I said, we kept our girl going for several months after the diagnosis, and the vet did not seem to link her death to the internal laying, but perhaps the medication had some role in her hip socket dissolving - I don't know. She was our most beloved hen and we spent a fortune trying to keep her going. She had a lovely little life and was hand-fed in her last days but the vet finally said it was clear she was in pain so we let her go.

My personal feeling is that hatchery stock are bred for laying, not for longevity. I lost three out of my first four hens, two to unknown factors that could have been laying issues but I'll never know. Keeping my fingers crossed with my five new hens from a different hatchery. It's very hard to lose them.

 

[Happy Chooks]

Update:


After 33 days of not laying, my buttercup has now started laying normal eggs again. She laid 2 days in a row, skipped yesterday, so we'll see if she lays today. They are small eggs, like pullet sized - but are complete with strong shell and no internal defects in the egg.

Now I'm really confused.