To Insulate The Chicken House Or Not?

[patandchickens]

Several serious misconceptions here:

1) Assuming adequate ventilation and some reasonable window(s) in the coop, insulation DOES NOT keep a coop from warming up on winter mornings. Quite the opposite, it helps the coop warm up FASTER.

2) Coops DO NOT necessarily drop to ambient temperature overnight in winter; it depends quite a lot on the details of the coop (size, materials, flooring, #chickens, and how much it warmed up during the day) but it is very common, I would say USUAL for well-designed walk-in size coops, to stay significantly warmer than the outdoor nightly low. Even for coops that do eventually get down to ambient outdoor temp, the better your insulation holds the day's warmth, the shorter the period of time will be that they're at outdoor temps.

3) Insulation DOES NOT encourage condensation, except in the very specific case where you have high thermal mass (e.g. large expanse of dirt or concrete floor with little bedding on it) AND it's an unusually-warm day after a cold winter.

4) Indeed, insulation allows your ventilation to work more effectively, by keeping the air slightly warmer (for longer, anyhow) and thus more moisture-holding, so that the air exiting the coop carries more humidity with it.

Now, it is certainly true that you do not usually NEED to insulate.

However there is really no disadvantage to well-installed insulation (I say 'well installed' because mistakes can lead to rodent or mold problems), other than the initial labor and cost. It can be done for free if you scrounge materials, though.

And there are considerable benefits from insulating... both if you're not going to electrically-heat the coop AND if you are

My 'cold coop' page, link in .sig below, has more discussion of these issues.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[PurpleChicken]

Pat, please explain #1 in more detail. Insulation, both in a theoretical way and my own experience, stabilizes temps on both temperature swings. On a warm morning following a cold night the insulation slows down the warming of the coop by preventing the transfer of heat energy to the inside and by reducing the effect of the outer skin of the coop warming the interior. On a cold night followed by a warm day it does exactly the opposite by holding the heat energy inside.

A very important aspect of insulation is doing it right. Insulation should have a moisture blocking layer on the inside of the structure. It MUST also be installed tight to the outside material or have a vent layer between to prevent moisture from being trapped. Insulation itself will not add to moisture issues however an inadequate technique when installing it will have a negative consequence, usually a moisture issue.

Every area is different too. Here in CT we have very humid summer days. My own moisture problems have come in the winter though. I've had major condensation issues on my walls as the interior humidity rises from the animals breathing and the minor difference between the inner and outer temps. Cold walls with a warmer and moister interior is a problem and my barn is vented well. Heating it only made it worse.


Typically I recommend not insulating, especially in southern New England. In colder areas with particular breeds of birds it may be necessary.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
In my experience, coops and similar type buildings do not warm up (on winter mornings) primarily by heat transfer from warming outdoor air thru the walls.

The main source of winter-morning warming is sunlight coming through the window(s). This can have a really substantial effect. I do not know about your coop in particular, PC, and as I have said it does depend on the construction details of a particular coop; but IME it is GENERALLY true, and IMO should be encouraged by wise design features.

The more 'greenhouse effect' heat you can hold onto by means of insulation, the quicker things warm up in there.

A very important aspect of insulation is doing it right. Insulation should have a moisture blocking layer on the inside of the structure. It MUST also be installed tight to the outside material or have a vent layer between to prevent moisture from being trapped. Insulation itself will not add to moisture issues however an inadequate technique when installing it will have a negative consequence, usually a moisture issue.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this -- although note that it is disagreement based on *suspicion* not on actual good data-like comparison, in contrast to what the rest of what I say in this post is based on.

I am really unconvinced that a moisture barrier per se is usually a good thing in a chicken coop. It does depend on the rest of the construction of course, but based on my experience with horse barns I honestly feel that there is good merit to having the walls be able to ABSORB some moisture, provided they only do it 'sometimes' and are mostly inclined to dry out. (That means things like good roof overhangs, no leaks, etc). In this manner, the wood etc of the walls can buffer temporary humidity peaks, then dry out again after the conditions have passed.

A coop is NOT a house; there are a couple respects in which its operating conditions are really much different than our own houses, which means that not all design principles from houses transfer well to coops. I believe this is one of them.

My own moisture problems have come in the winter though. I've had major condensation issues on my walls as the interior humidity rises from the animals breathing and the minor difference between the inner and outer temps. Cold walls with a warmer and moister interior is a problem and my barn is vented well. Heating it only made it worse.

The reason heating makes it worse is that heating the air allows it to absorb more moisture from the poo, bedding, etc. This is a good thing IF you have increased ventilation to REMOVE that warmer wetter air. However if ventilation is insufficient, you just end up with wetter air

and if your walls are cold then you will get increased condensation. (And the more condensation you have, the less good your ventilation can do, since ventilation only lets water *vapor* out, not bulk water)

Thus, if you had more ventilation, heating would not cause problems; and if you insulated your walls more heavily, you would have less problem with condensation and whatever amount of ventilation you DO have would work more effectively in removing moisture.

(No offense, but whether a structure has adequate ventilation or not is not a theoretical issue IMHO, it is an operationally-defined thing, so if you are having humidity problems then by definition you do *not* have enough ventilation for the amount of chickens-and-other-moisture-sources in the barn...)

Just sayin',

Pat​

 

[PurpleChicken]

Quote:
In my experience, coops and similar type buildings do not warm up (on winter mornings) primarily by heat transfer from warming outdoor air thru the walls.

The main source of winter-morning warming is sunlight coming through the window(s). This can have a really substantial effect. I do not know about your coop in particular, PC, and as I have said it does depend on the construction details of a particular coop; but IME it is GENERALLY true, and IMO should be encouraged by wise design features.

The more 'greenhouse effect' heat you can hold onto by means of insulation, the quicker things warm up in there.

Ohhhh. I didn't give greenhouse style warming any consideration. That make perfect sense.


Quote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with this -- although note that it is disagreement based on *suspicion* not on actual good data-like comparison, in contrast to what the rest of what I say in this post is based on.

I am really unconvinced that a moisture barrier per se is usually a good thing in a chicken coop. It does depend on the rest of the construction of course, but based on my experience with horse barns I honestly feel that there is good merit to having the walls be able to ABSORB some moisture, provided they only do it 'sometimes' and are mostly inclined to dry out. (That means things like good roof overhangs, no leaks, etc). In this manner, the wood etc of the walls can buffer temporary humidity peaks, then dry out again after the conditions have passed.

A coop is NOT a house; there are a couple respects in which its operating conditions are really much different than our own houses, which means that not all design principles from houses transfer well to coops. I believe this is one of them.

I don't see much disagreement here. I'm torn a bit a moisture barriers also and I also agree a house is different from a barn which is very different from a small coop. In a house moisture layers are critical on both sides of the outer wall and inside wall of insulation. The variables differ in buildings, like coops and barns, which are not sealed. It's also important to mention insulating a roof is very different from a wall due to the severe heat swings present in most roofs, especially those with black tar shingles.


Quote:
The reason heating makes it worse is that heating the air allows it to absorb more moisture from the poo, bedding, etc. This is a good thing IF you have increased ventilation to REMOVE that warmer wetter air. However if ventilation is insufficient, you just end up with wetter air

and if your walls are cold then you will get increased condensation. (And the more condensation you have, the less good your ventilation can do, since ventilation only lets water *vapor* out, not bulk water)

Thus, if you had more ventilation, heating would not cause problems; and if you insulated your walls more heavily, you would have less problem with condensation and whatever amount of ventilation you DO have would work more effectively in removing moisture.

That is a catch 22. The more ventilation in a structure than the more heat that is lost, mostly due to convection. There isn't much point in heating if that heat is going to be vented to the outside, not held inside. It's true that thicker layers of insulation will prevent water from condensing on those outside walls. In my case I use propane to heat the barn which has a very high moisture emission.

Quote:
A cold glass on a summer day has unlimited ventilation but water still condenses on it once the surface temperature of the glass falls below the dew point. Damp surfaces pose other threats like mold. You can have a damp coop with no mold or a coop with dry air and mold on the walls. You're correct. Most of these issues are operational.


Like I've said many times before, in most cases insulation is not needed and in some it can be a liability. Most people who ask the question about insulation in the first place don't realize how well most breeds of chickens do in the cold. We have many members here who live in Alaska who don't have insulated coops.


I'd love to fully insulate my barn at some point and probably will. When I gut out the interior I will probably insulate it using fiberglass and then put up interior walls or sealed sheetrock. For the roof I'll use 2" sheets of foam and leave it open. I currently have a large gable fan that turns on at 90 degrees and even on a hot day in the sun the barn is comfortable inside. The fan also removes the smell and dust making for happier chickens and a happier me.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Yes, but since it is HUMIDITY that causes frostbite and other cold-related problems, far more so than COLD per se, I am a firm believer that the tradeoff should be manipulated to favor good air quality (low humidity) and then whatever temperature it is, it is. And if you have really climate-inappropriate breeds, you heat little 'pools' of heat or small enclosures for them, NOT the whole structure.

There isn't much point in heating if that heat is going to be vented to the outside, not held inside.

I don't know, look at it a different way... you just can't expect ALL your supplemental heat to stay in the building. Some percentage of it is loss. It's just the way it is (unless I suppose you had some bizarre fancy heat-exchange-and-ventilation system

). Not necessarily a problem, just something you have to factor in.

In my case I use propane to heat the barn which has a very high moisture emission.

Oh gracious, no WONDER you have moisture problems.

The solution would appear to be fairly obvious....

Quote:
A cold glass on a summer day has unlimited ventilation but water still condenses on it once the surface temperature of the glass falls below the dew point.

Yes, but nobody CARES whether that happens. Whereas it matters a fair bit in livestock housing. So in livestock housing your ventilation is not "good" unless it is capable of keeping up with the moisture load.

The only chicken-coop counterpart I can see to your 'cold glass on a summer day' is if you have an insufficiently insulated surface with VERY cold outdoor temperatures and significantly less-cold indoor temperatures. This is not something that is a realistic problem in Connnecticut

and honestly it doesn't even happen very much here, an hour north of Toronto. Mainly in coops it is a problem for *windows*, which can indeed develop significant amounts of condensate/frost. Taping bubblewrap on them helps somewhat; but not completely, especially not if one lives in, say, northern Alaska

But the relatively small acreage of a window is not really *much* of a problem even *if* it becomes a bit of a condensation farm... unlike if your whole roof and/or walls are doing that. (If they are, insulation will help greatly).

We have many members here who live in Alaska who don't have insulated coops.

I don't know, DO we? The *cold* parts of Alaska? The ones I can think of all DO have heavy insulation.

I totally agree insulation is not *necessary* in the climates most of us live in... but just because it isn't *necessary* doesn't mean it's not DESIRABLE, giving some real advantages.

JMHO,

Pat​

 

[mightieskeeper]

Pat Said it Best. "HUMIDITY that causes frostbite and other cold-related problems". I had a problem with the humidity being to high causing frostbit. You can never have enough vents. I would say, Insulate if you want to. Just make sure your ventilation is working for your coop. Chickens stay warmer than you think in the winter.