To soy or not to soy - that is the question!

[glib]

Afternoon friends!

I'm new to this whole chicken life and I myself eat non gmo organic with little soy - so why would I not want the same for my chickens? I know this is a hot topic and I've read lots of threads on here but I can't seem to find research on the gritty of yes or no for soy feeds. I did find a non gmo organic feed that contains soy but as long as it's not genetically modified the quality of the soy isn't as bad.
I have to order the feed if I decide to go with a non gmo non soy feed, I can't find any at stores close to me.

I would love to hear everyones opinions/suggestions/rationale behind what you do!

Enlighten me!

I don't totally understand this question. If the feed is fermented most of the bad stuff in soy disappears anyway.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I don't totally understand this question. If the feed is fermented most of the bad stuff in soy disappears anyway.

According to who? I'd like to read that research.

Soy's antinutritional factors are mostly and traditionally addressed via heat treatment, not enzymes or fermentation. Similar to other legumes. and for the same reasons.

 

[leah vanity]

Soy.

1st - the reasons against Soy aren't nearly so cut and dry as the public seems to assume. Much of the conventional wisdom out there (on Soy, and many other topics) is simply wrong. I'd invite you to look at the CA Teacher's Study - one of the most robust and long term looks at human diets in my lifetime.

2nd - even if the human reasons against Soy were much more clear, and much more negative, there's still a bridge between eating soy yourself, and eating a creature (or its eggs) which has eaten soy. Much of what a chicken eats, during hte process of digestion, is broken down into different forms before being absorbed into the blood stream and distributed around the body - where it may (or may not) be concentrated in one organ or another. Some few things do make it intact, many others go right thru, excreted in the droppings.

To illustrate with a less maligned ingredient? Chickens, and their eggs, are gluten-free. I can link dozens of websites concerned with Celiac disease, including the Mayo Clinic, and more studies besides. The statement should raise no eyebrows, its well settled. and yet plenty of chickens eat wheat as part of their diet. Doesn't matter. Unless you are cutting open the crop and gizzard of a chicken recently fed wheat, or licking out its stomach, the glutens in wheat are denatured by the chicken's digestive system and no longer exist in that complex form when taken into the bird's bloodstream.

3) Ok, but why shouldn't I avoid it anyways, out of an (over) abundance of the precautionary principal? Because Chickens (particularly modern chickens) need an excellent diet in order to perform at optimum levels of growth, health, egg laying, etc.
Among the needs - things they can only get from their feed - is a critical (also called "limiting") amino acid called Methionine. Its called "critical" or "limiting" because chickens can only use protein up to the amount based on their Methionine intake - the rest is wasted. (There are others, with similar effect - Lysine, Threonine, Tryptophan are the top four, in descending order of importance). Plants, generally, do not offer "complete" proteins, the ratios of the critical amino acids are off. Its why conscientious vegetarians engage in protein complimentation with meals like black beans with yellow rice, in an effort to provide a meal which makes a complete protein in combination.

Plant sources of concentrated methionine are few and far between - so much so that synthetic methionine (appears as dl-Methionine on the ingredients list) can be added in very limited amounts (well below the current minimum recommendations) to feeds, EVEN ORGANIC FEEDS! Doing otherwise is the equivalent of sending ancient sailors on long sea voyages with no vitamin C source - only a lack of Met doesn't cause scurvy. Met is used in connective tissues, holding the whole body together - skin, feathers, tendons, the whole of the digestive tract, etc...

Soy meal happens to be an excellent source of Methionine, pound per pound. Its available at commercial scale, reasonably priced, and doesn't have some of the negatives of other high methionine sources (most others are very high fat, high fiber, or both - and high fiber diets aren't good for chickens the way they are good for us).

4) But why don't I feed my birds beans and rice, like a human vegetarian? you just said it makes a complete protein... Because beans don't provide enough methionine in their natural state to meat a bird's needs, much less when the total meal is made up of some small amount of beans (a moderate methionine source) together with a lot of rice (a low methionine source). To get the amount they need, they would have to eat a lot more. That brings a host of problems of its own - too many calories, too many anti-nutritive factors from the beans, etc

5) I still don't want to use Soy, because I heard soy contains phytoestrogens which are said to cause _____ by acting like human estrogen. First, go back to 1, above. Second, the plant based soy alternatives all include phytoestrogens too - including alfalfa, peanuts, clovers, and the beans mentioned in 4, above. and because they are mostly lower total protein sources, with different amino acid profiles, you generally have to use more of them, which can greatly reduce the differences in relative phytoestrogen contents between the ingredients. Beans are also high (as is wheat) in lectins, which bring their own concerns in a chicken's diet.

6) What are my other alternatives to highly processed soy/alfalfa/cottonseed/rapeseed/etc meals? Animal sources. Fish meal, Crab Meal, Porcine Blood Meal, etc. Certain yeasts (though expensive way to try and feed chickens).

7) No other way to get concentrated sources of methionine? Not off the grocery shelf. I'm starting to look at SAM-e, which you can get off the shelf (just as you can l-Lysine), but SAM-e and methionine are not the same in ways I can't yet describe, because I'm not done researching it and remain uncomfortable with my understanding of the ingredient. "S-adenosyl-L-methionine" by the way. Its close. Is it "close enough"? I don't yet know.

I think that answers most of the more common questions on the subject. Apologies for style, its "wierd" inside this brain. You got the [heavily edited] version.

Ok this article and study (veryyyy long) is quite interesting - talking about the transfer of soybean isoflavones from feed being found in eggs (particularly yolks). I am reading this in shifts as it is so much to take in and I also have 2 babies running around haha but this is super interesting. Note - I have not completed it so I'm not making any claims yet - felt I had to have a disclaimer hahaha

http://www.phoenixorganicfeed.com/why-no-soy.html

The full 50 page thesis is on that link but here is it as well:

http://www.phoenixorganicfeed.com/u..._transfer_from_feed_into_eggs_and_tissues.pdf

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Ok this article and study (veryyyy long) is quite interesting - talking about the transfer of soybean isoflavones from feed being found in eggs (particularly yolks). I am reading this in shifts as it is so much to take in and I also have 2 babies running around haha but this is super interesting. Note - I have not completed it so I'm not making any claims yet - felt I had to have a disclaimer hahaha

http://www.phoenixorganicfeed.com/why-no-soy.html

The full 50 page thesis is on that link but here is it as well:

http://www.phoenixorganicfeed.com/u..._transfer_from_feed_into_eggs_and_tissues.pdf

Taking the article at face value, one 500th of the Isoflavones in the feed made it to the egg yolk, while one 50,000th made it to the muscle (flesh) of the chicken. almost 3x that much in the heart.

Honestly, those are risks I'm willing to take.

Phytoestrogens, a class of environmental estrogens, include lignans, stilbenes, and flavonoids [1]. Isoflavonoids, which include isoflavones, constitute one group of flavonoids. Soy and its products, and legume seeds (lentils, beans, peas) are the richest sources of isoflavones, including genistein and daidzein [2]. Moreover, small amounts of isoflavones are also contained in other plant products (cereals, potatoes, vegetables, fruits), as well as in milk, meat, and beer [1, 2].

The first anti-soy blurb links to youtube and huffpo - hardly reliable sources on nutritional information.

The second anti soy blurb talks about anti-nutrients. Hint: There are antinutrients in EVERYTHING. What's your alternative?
They offer this list of scary sounding things:
saponins, soyatoxin, phytates, protease inhibitors, oxalates, goitrogens and estrogens

Saponins are present in relatively high levels in soy, lentils, beans, peas, also alliums (garlic, onion), moderately high in oats, licorice, ginsing, fenugreek, tea, beats, asparagus..

Soyatoxin is an antifungal. Yes its toxic in mice it you inject them with 6mg/kg of their body weight in purified soyatoxin. The amount of soy needed to produce 6mg of the stuff is massive. How massive I can't determine - apart from a brazilian study in 1994, and another in 2014, its hard to get any data on it at all - no one seems to be reporting its concentration levels within the plant.

Phytates are present at high levels in legumes like soy and beans. All seeds (sunflower, sesame, flax). Also grains like wheat, and oats and some veggies such as beets and turnips.

Protease inhibitors? Essentially all the legumes again, apples, banana, pineapple, wheat (again), plus very high in potatoes, also very high in tomatoes, more moderate in spinach, cabbage, (the rest of the cruciferous veggies), mustards...

Oxalates - cruciferous veggies? (Spinach, Kale, Cabbage, Mustards - I'm looking at you)

Goitrogens - hey cruciferous, its you again...

They didn't mention lignins, a subclass of phytoestrogens. Goodbye seeds, whole grains, coffee, tea, beans...

These things all sound spooky and dangerous. The DOSAGE is the Poison. and in commercial feeds, many of these are addressed by various forms of heat treatment, the addition of enzymes, or similar processes. Or by removing things (like shells and hulls where they tend to concentrate).

 

[3KillerBs]

Taking the article at face value, one 500th of the Isoflavones in the feed made it to the egg yolk, while one 50,000th made it to the muscle (flesh) of the chicken. almost 3x that much in the heart.

Honestly, those are risks I'm willing to take.

Phytoestrogens, a class of environmental estrogens, include lignans, stilbenes, and flavonoids [1]. Isoflavonoids, which include isoflavones, constitute one group of flavonoids. Soy and its products, and legume seeds (lentils, beans, peas) are the richest sources of isoflavones, including genistein and daidzein [2]. Moreover, small amounts of isoflavones are also contained in other plant products (cereals, potatoes, vegetables, fruits), as well as in milk, meat, and beer [1, 2].

The first anti-soy blurb links to youtube and huffpo - hardly reliable sources on nutritional information.

The second anti soy blurb talks about anti-nutrients. Hint: There are antinutrients in EVERYTHING. What's your alternative?
They offer this list of scary sounding things:
saponins, soyatoxin, phytates, protease inhibitors, oxalates, goitrogens and estrogens

Saponins are present in relatively high levels in soy, lentils, beans, peas, also alliums (garlic, onion), moderately high in oats, licorice, ginsing, fenugreek, tea, beats, asparagus..

Soyatoxin is an antifungal. Yes its toxic in mice it you inject them with 6mg/kg of their body weight in purified soyatoxin. The amount of soy needed to produce 6mg of the stuff is massive. How massive I can't determine - apart from a brazilian study in 1994, and another in 2014, its hard to get any data on it at all - no one seems to be reporting its concentration levels within the plant.

Phytates are present at high levels in legumes like soy and beans. All seeds (sunflower, sesame, flax). Also grains like wheat, and oats and some veggies such as beets and turnips.

Protease inhibitors? Essentially all the legumes again, apples, banana, pineapple, wheat (again), plus very high in potatoes, also very high in tomatoes, more moderate in spinach, cabbage, (the rest of the cruciferous veggies), mustards...

Oxalates - cruciferous veggies? (Spinach, Kale, Cabbage, Mustards - I'm looking at you)

Goitrogens - hey cruciferous, its you again...

They didn't mention lignins, a subclass of phytoestrogens. Goodbye seeds, whole grains, coffee, tea, beans...

These things all sound spooky and dangerous. The DOSAGE is the Poison. and in commercial feeds, many of these are addressed by various forms of heat treatment, the addition of enzymes, or similar processes. Or by removing things (like shells and hulls where they tend to concentrate).

I can't follow all this, especially when it comes to dosage levels, etc. (I can do simple things, like plate tectonics ), but my general rule is that when people are trying to scare you away from something commonly used and widely accepted -- especially by people whose livelihood depends on that something being safe and effective (such as commercial farmers) -- my immediate reaction is to know what the scaremongers are trying to sell me.

Sometimes they're just after the fame and the sensation of power, occasionally just the kick of rebellion and/or the thrill of having secret knowledge, but mostly they stand to make money by selling an alternative to the problem they're trying to convince people exists.

 

[glib]

According to who? I'd like to read that research.

Soy's antinutritional factors are mostly and traditionally addressed via heat treatment, not enzymes or fermentation. Similar to other legumes. and for the same reasons.

Granted it is with bacillus subtilis (natto), but there are tons of published papers about soy. Probably you are saying that lactic fermentation will not do that.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Granted it is with bacillus subtilis (natto), but there are tons of published papers about soy. Probably you are saying that lactic fermentation will not do that.

Fermentation is good for ONE of Soy's antinutritional properties - the Phytates. Fermenting is also good for lectins, but soy doesn't have an issue with high lectins.

and what I'm saying is that commercially processed soy for feed is traditionally heat treated. If you have studies showing effective reduction of the majority of the antinutritive properties in soy, please, link them. I'd like to read them.

 

[Sally PB]

Fascinating thread. Thank you, @U_Stormcrow, for the well researched replies.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Fascinating thread. Thank you, @U_Stormcrow, for the well researched replies.

I have ego enough to appreciate being appreciated. Thank you @Sally PB

I've been twice rewarded now for the time I've put into this thread.

 

[leah vanity]

I have ego enough to appreciate being appreciated. Thank you @Sally PB

I've been twice rewarded now for the time I've put into this thread.

I just want to get on your level and know what you know! hahahahaha I am loving all this dialogue! Thanks everyone for chiming in!!