To soy or not to soy - that is the question!

[U_Stormcrow]

I just want to get on your level and know what you know! hahahahaha I am loving all this dialogue! Thanks everyone for chiming in!!

8 months ago, I knew nothing. I started with the excellent posters at BYC and some resources they suggested, then branched out from there. I will admit that, by accident of the genetic lottery, I can pick up a level of competency faster than most - but the same genetic accident means I get bored to tears before I master anything.

Even so, there is no reason why anyone else with the time, and the interest, couldn't quickly match or exceed my knowledge on the topic. It might take them a little longer, but not much longer. I've become lessened as I've aged - the brain isn't as plastic as it used to be. Everything takes longer.

 

[glib]

Fermentation is good for ONE of Soy's antinutritional properties - the Phytates. Fermenting is also good for lectins, but soy doesn't have an issue with high lectins.

and what I'm saying is that commercially processed soy for feed is traditionally heat treated. If you have studies showing effective reduction of the majority of the antinutritive properties in soy, please, link them. I'd like to read them.

I may have a different view. Phytates are gone with soaking. Now, bacillus is different from lactic bacteria, because it feeds on protein mainly, hence its powerful detoxifying properties, since most toxins, specially in grains, are in fact proteins. Natto (soy soaked and fermented with bacillus) is fed many types of livestock, particularly pigs, and is surely better than roasting (which deactivates some proteins with heat), although not as convenient.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33563053/

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I may have a different view. Phytates are gone with soaking. Now, bacillus is different from lactic bacteria, because it feeds on protein mainly, hence its powerful detoxifying properties, since most toxins, specially in grains, are in fact proteins. Natto (soy soaked and fermented with bacillus) is fed many types of livestock, particularly pigs, and is surely better than roasting (which deactivates some proteins with heat), although not as convenient.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33563053/

thank you, I don't have acces to the text, only the summary of what the study was about.

Yes, soaking is another way of dealing with phytates. Particularly effective on beans, whose problematic factors tend to be concentrated in the skin. Soakings is also good for tannins and lectins. Consider, for instance. Other studies suggest one might benefit by skipping the effort of fermenting soy (or any other prodict) with bacillus spp and simply feeding it to the birds directly.

 

[glib]

I do not have chickens currently, and I may not have them for a long time, since my neighbors have chickens coming out of their ears. I will spend this year establishing a herd of cows, but then I will turn my attention to pigs. We will experiment with natto with 100% probability, including with their chickens. I will report in the group. In my previous life I traveled to Japan often for work, and I started making natto at home in 2008. It is clearly a powerful heath food. It is no surprise that animals react similarly. For humans, it is even better if it is done with black beans, mixed with grains (rye, barley, or oats) and grated roots (I have tried yam and sweet potatoes and beets), as you know soy is quite toxic. Both vitamin K2 and nattokinase (the proteic enzyme) increase by a factor of ten. The body then uses NK in a variety of beneficial ways.

 

[glib]

I do not have chickens currently, and I may not have them for a long time, since my neighbors have chickens coming out of their ears. I will spend this year establishing a herd of cows, but then I will turn my attention to pigs. We will experiment with natto with 100% probability, including with their chickens. I will report in the group. In my previous life I traveled to Japan often for work, and I started making natto at home in 2008. It is clearly a powerful heath food. It is no surprise that animals react similarly. For humans, it is even better if it is done with black beans, mixed with grains (rye, barley, or oats) and grated roots (I have tried yam and sweet potatoes and beets), as you know soy is quite toxic. Both vitamin K2 and nattokinase (the proteic enzyme) increase by a factor of ten. The body then uses NK in a variety of beneficial ways.

PS. In case you are wondering, chickens love natto.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Good they do I can't stand it.

 

[Folly's place]

Another great thread, thanks to @U Stormcrow! Reminds me about the biochem and animal nutrition college classes from long ago. Not fond memories...
Mary

 

[TXChookstead]

I had an interesting conversation with the owner of a feed store yesterday. He had been a farmer for years (corn, etc.), so he has a lot of insights many wouldn't have.

His store specializes in Purina, but carries a lot of other brands as well (I specifically noticed Mazuri among them). There was only one organic offering there, as he said few folks buy it.

We got to talking about the non GMO/organic situation, and he mentioned (as a grower) that "organic" might not mean what folks think it does. He said the transport trucks typically pick up both organic and conventional, so there is some residual mixing after one or the other is delivered, and that sometimes the wrong loads get dumped off at the destination. "I've seen it before," he said. Basically, his take was that you might be paying extra for organic, but not getting it.

He also mentioned that things are NOT looking good in the agricultural sector right now. He can see trouble brewing, as I suppose a lot of us can. He's just a lot more involved in the supply chain as a farmer and feed store owner than a lot of folks are.

I can't verify anything he said (other than the fact that I heard it), but I did find it pretty thought provoking.

 

[leah vanity]

I had an interesting conversation with the owner of a feed store yesterday. He had been a farmer for years (corn, etc.), so he has a lot of insights many wouldn't have.

His store specializes in Purina, but carries a lot of other brands as well (I specifically noticed Mazuri among them). There was only one organic offering there, as he said few folks buy it.

We got to talking about the non GMO/organic situation, and he mentioned (as a grower) that "organic" might not mean what folks think it does. He said the transport trucks typically pick up both organic and conventional, so there is some residual mixing after one or the other is delivered, and that sometimes the wrong loads get dumped off at the destination. "I've seen it before," he said. Basically, his take was that you might be paying extra for organic, but not getting it.

He also mentioned that things are NOT looking good in the agricultural sector right now. He can see trouble brewing, as I suppose a lot of us can. He's just a lot more involved in the supply chain as a farmer and feed store owner than a lot of folks are.

I can't verify anything he said (other than the fact that I heard it), but I did find it pretty thought provoking.

Very interesting indeed. Always love conversations like these. Thanks for sharing!

 

[bgmathteach]

I'm a beginner chicken mama, so no expert. However, I feed soy free, and that's because I'm allergic to soy and can't handle the feed (gives me asthma). I don't really feel like donning a mask and gloves every time I feed my chickens. Soy is a huge allergen for a certain group of people. It may be metabolized out by the time it reaches the egg, and that's fine, but the feed itself causes issues for ME. Pretty simple, really.

I actually had a customer that bought my eggs because they are allergic to soy, and store bought eggs give her a reaction...but mine (fed soy free) didn't.

Unfortunately, due to cost of soy free feeds, I have reverted back to a 'limited soy', i.e. buy locally available organic feed and mix with ordered/shipped soy free organic ...but the person can no longer eat my eggs. I wish I could accommodate them, but the price difference is outrageous (about triple the cost) Considering I have approx. 80 chickens, I couldn't afford it for 1 doz. every other week. I do feel bad, though, about her not being able to get eggs anywhere anymore.