Training a dog after it's killed several more than once? Possible?

[huckleberryfarm]

I have a 5-yr old border collie mix. We just bought a farm and got some chickens. We've tried to train him on a leash, taking him around the chickens, telling him no. During our "not training" time, I've tied him up. We put his leash around the deck post one day, he ate through the leash and killed 9 of my sweet silkies before I could stop him. More training. Today he got out of his collar and attacked one of my Ameraucana hens. Thankfully I was in the coop filling the feeder, so when my 5-yr old daughter started screaming, I was able to get out there before he actually killed her. He did bite her and tear off a whole patch of feathers. Hopefully she'll be okay. I spanked him, yelled no at him, and he just looked at me, wagging his tail. And I had disciplined him severly enough to make an impact. I don't think he cares.

I like this dog and he's always been gentle. He's never nipped at my children or any person. He's just happy go lucky most of the time. Are we particularly attached to him? Probably not really. He's an outside dog and always has been. We also have an older Lab who could care less about the chickens.

I'm trying to figure out what to do. We have a large farm but the coops are near the house which is obviously where the dogs are. We love the chickens and love having them around and being with them. I want them to be able to free range for many reasons. My husband's solution is just to put the dog on a chain all day while the chickens are out. That doesn't seem fair to the dog. I like having dogs for protection.

Can we train this dog still? I've been trying for a month and it seems like he does anything to get out to get the chickens. I refuse to lose any more chickens to this dog. We have bought our stock from some of the top breeders in the country and it wasn't cheap. We have 50+ chickens right now. My kids, if given a choice, would choose the chickens over this dog.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cindiloohoo]

You have a few options. You can train him still. It takes a dog over 1500 times to truly "get" a command. Intense training DAILY for at least 30 minutes is a must if you want to keep him. If you think chaining while the chooks are out is unfair to the dog...muzzle him or put him on a long run, or both. Otherwise it is either or...either the dog goes or the chickens go. Very limited options, but options nonetheless. I'd be rehoming him after killing that many myself. To me it's not worth the effort when I could just rehome one that didn't get along well. That dog needs a job, get him some goats to herd or something if you keep him.

 

[huckleberryfarm]

Good idea. We have goats! I should put him in there and see how he does! May try that tomorrow. He's a herder by nature. Thanks!

 

[Andy J]

My dog killed 2 roosters on 2 different occasions.The roosters were in the yard,out of the pen. Both times I witnessed him chase them down and kill them,with me yelling at him to stop.Both times I held the dog by the collar,took the dead rooster,and whipped him with the dead rooster until he got away from me and went into his dog house.I stuck the rooster in the dog house with him,pushing and shoving the rooster on him until he ran away from me.

A little extreme,maybe?Well,he got the message.Now the chickens eat his dog food and he just lays there several feet away and doesn't even look at them.He's darn lucky he didn't get the 12 gauge.I value my chickens much more than that stupid dog.

 

[huckleberryfarm]

Thanks, Andy. I don't think it was extreme. He's still there so I guess he came out alright. I just hate that this is happening. He acts like it's a game and I can't seem to get him to understand it's not. He just sits and wags his tail at me no matter what. And my voice was hoarse today from screaming at him. Unfortunately my husband's love of chickens is not as strong as his love of dogs.

 

[PaulaJoAnne]

The old timers last resort trick, that even my FIL has succesfully used, is to tie the head of a dead chicken to the collar of the dog, and let it rot.
Sorry that is really gross, but when its a desperate situation, it does work.

 

[BloominOrchid]

Hello! Sorry to hear about your troubles. Here is my thoughts on the situation. Yes he can change, but will you & the family change too?
I have been a dog trainer for 10+ years, and while sure he can change its going to be 1000 times easier on all of you to rehome him.
He is a working breed dog who needs to work, Im betting hes not doing what thousands of years of genetics has taught him, to be a working herding dog. So hes frustrated and going after the chickens. Thats fun to him, they put up a good chase. So to him its a good fun game. Muzzles is just a temp fix. Its not fair to him, or to you guys, what if one of your kids forgets to put it on him and he kills more, then they would feel awful that they forgot to muzzle him.
For the sake of your family & the happiness of the dog find him a new home. You all deserve better

Erin

 

[huckleberryfarm]

Thanks, everyone. Erin, I agree. He's doing what comes naturally to him. I guess that's where the dilemma comes in. I think the hubby and I need to have a talk about what to do. I keep telling him that it's not fair for our dog to be tied up all the time and it's not fair to the chickens to be penned up all the time. Oh, well. It will all work out in the long run. With hopefully no more loss of life! Thanks for all the advice!

 

[kimb]

I agree with Erin ... if you can't or don't want to put in the excessive work that it is to have an active, intelligent, herding bred dog - the best thing you can do for both him and yourself is to rehome him! (no hard feelings within your family, and you will ensure the safety of the rest of your flock)!

This dog has learned that it gets more gratification from the chase/destroying your birds (probably emotionally and physically) than it gets by not ... with that in mind what HAVE you trained your dog to do? ... did you teach your dog HOW to act around the birds? or just try and teach it how NOT to react ? ( food for thought )...

If you've never provided or enforced the good behavior (AND) make that MORE rewarding than the chase/destroy/kill of the birds - you are never going to train this dog not to kill them ( . )

Dogs will always do what gets them the most reward the easiest and quickest ... it is very rare that a dog is truly going to learn from fear of pain ... (if it does - it's probably abuse or at least borderline abuse) and you could create a fearful aggressive dog that just portrays YOU as the source of negative and not the birds. How many dogs do you know ONLY go after a porcupine once, what about a skunk? ....

... if your truly interested in making this work with this dog - hitting/physical pain is not the answer ( you already tried that - it didn't work).

I'd recommend finding a trainer and/or reading up on "positive reinforcement methodology" ...
This might be more helpful than what I can explain:
http://talismanaussies.com/training.htm

But this is going to be a daily, life long commitment ... I understand it being more than you (and your family!) can do, and wouldn't think poorly of you rehoming the dog to a better environment for it's personality/physical desire... other wise - hunker down and get reading

And I'm deeply sorry for your losses ...

... I hope time will heal your pains

 

[huckleberryfarm]

The big problem is we've had the dog for 5 years and the chickens for 4 months. We've always lived in a neighborhood and he was in a fenced yard with our other dog. This farm stuff is new to all of us. So he hasn't had extensive training with the chickens. They're just getting old enough to run around on their own anyway. Both of our dogs have been on an invisible fence. My husband suggested tonight that we try putting in an invisible fence around the area we want the chickens to free range. We have 110 acres. Even if we put it around 1-2 acres, our dogs will have plenty of room to roam. We could always relocate the dogs to a specific pasture if the chickens want to expand their horizons. Sounds like it might work. We have the collars and they definitely are used to it. He's a sweet dog. I'd like to try to keep him if we can.