Two questions for gun control people

[hemet dennis]

Quote:
I like the T-55 nice low profile.

 

[hemet dennis]

Originally Posted by MamaRoo


Quote:

So where exactly is the line ?

 

[MamaRoo]

Quote: I guess I, and most of the people I know, never felt this was a 'knee jerk reaction', but more along the lines of 'how can something so horrible NOT open the eyes of most people to the insanity of weaponry in the hands of untrained, not-necessarily-stable people.'

I live in a place where people don't lock their doors, where you threaten teenagers by yelling "I KNOW YOUR MOTHER!!", where there are two degrees of separation between you, and any other member of the community. I wish more people lived like this, and I think fewer, and better regulated weapons is the way to achieve it. What happened in CT, I believe, reminded a lot of people that we all used to live like this, free from fear, and some of them would like that freedom back.

 

[chickened]

I guess I, and most of the people I know, never felt this was a 'knee jerk reaction', but more along the lines of 'how can something so horrible NOT open the eyes of most people to the insanity of weaponry in the hands of untrained, not-necessarily-stable people.'

I live in a place where people don't lock their doors, where you threaten teenagers by yelling "I KNOW YOUR MOTHER!!", where there are two degrees of separation between you, and any other member of the community. I wish more people lived like this, and I think fewer, and better regulated weapons is the way to achieve it. What happened in CT, I believe, reminded a lot of people that we all used to live like this, free from fear, and some of them would like that freedom back.

I made a comment in another forum along the line that, why is it when some white kids get shot in the NE is it a national tragedy when young black youths are shot daily as long as I can remember in the inner cities and nothing is done like what is being presented as of lately. There is an old saying that say "only fools rush in"

 

[Allicoop]

I think it's time to ban all guns unless you can prove you have a legitimate reason to have one, that is backed up by references and then a license could be granted. There are more and more people these days suffering mental health issues than ever before..this is the scariest part. These massacres that seem to occur more frequently these days would not be on the mass scale as they are now with a knife or with their hands. Guns don't give the victims much of a chance.....there will always be those that have guns illegally, especially gangs...you will prolly never stop them but you can certainly make it harder to get them...

 

[Demosthine]

Dennis...you really can not be serious. What part of that answer was spin...what part did you fail to understand, what part did you even disagree with? You really need some one to tell you that the focus of the intended restrictions are assault type rifles because just recently a young man with an assault rifle made hamburger out of 6 and 7 year old babies and well over 60 percent of the country is demanding that some restriction be placed on that type of weapon? Please don't tell me that you live in this country and missed that small point. You can either make serious and cogent argument or just bang on the table and eventually be ignored.

I would add that all of the statistics I have read on the various "News Outlets" were conducted in gun-control friendly states and are extremely small numbers of people polled. This can not constitute any serious foundation for a demand of something as far reaching as the firearms bans that are being proposed.

And I've made a great many serious arguments, with statistical information to back up the claims. Instead of legitimate responses, people are making personal attacks and saying that none of that information is valid, just because the gun-control advocate says it isn't valid.


Here is a list, with references, that has been compiled of the massacres in the United States from 1982 to present. At the bottom, you can select Weapons Categories and it will break it down to what was known to have been used in each of the incidences. Note that handguns were used 68 (47.9%) times, revolvers were used 20 times (14.1%), shotguns were used 19 times (13.4%), and assault weapons were used 35 times (24.6%) for a total of 142 weapons. Virginia Tech (1st) had the highest rate of murders (33) and only used handguns. There were 24 killed in the Luby's Massacre (3rd), where only handguns were used. There were only handguns used in the U.S.P.S. Massacre (7th) that killed 15. The Birmingham shooting (8th) claimed 14 lives with only handguns, while Fort Hood (9th) claimed 13 with only a handgun. That is five of the top ten massacres in the list using only handguns. Those five accounted for 99 of 164 deaths, more than half at 60.4%.

Meanwhile, at the bottom of the list is Lindhurst High, claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Luigi's claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Thurston High claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Royal Oak Postal Shooting claiming 5 (3.5%) lives, an air force base shooting claiming 5 (3.5%) lives and the Clatrans Maintenance Yard claiming 5 (3.5%) lives. Of the ten lowest deaths, the six listed all had an assault weapon.

And, for the record, Virginia Tech was conducted with a .22 caliber Walther P22 and a 9mm Glock. Those are not even "large caliber" weapons. So realistically and statistically, assault rifles are not the primary weapon of choice. They are not even the primary killers. Of all the events, the 26 that used assault weapons killed 222 of 513 people. That is less than half, at 43.3%. This percentage does not calculate the actual number killed by the assault rifles, but rather the total number of people killed in an event that had an assault weapon. That statistic can be considered artificially high because in cases like Aurora, Colorado, the assault weapon malfunctioned with less than 30 rounds expended. The assault weapon did not necessarily kill all 222 of those victims.

 

[MamaRoo]

Quote: In an ideal world, no one would be killed by another human being, however, I personally see a difference between someone being killed while committing a crime vs someone being killed while going to a movie, or to school. How many of the inner city youths are shot while involved in something illegal?

 

[MamaRoo]

Here is a list, with references, that has been compiled of the massacres in the United States from 1982 to present. At the bottom, you can select Weapons Categories and it will break it down to what was known to have been used in each of the incidences. Note that handguns were used 68 (47.9%) times, revolvers were used 20 times (14.1%), shotguns were used 19 times (13.4%), and assault weapons were used 35 times (24.6%) for a total of 142 weapons. Virginia Tech (1st) had the highest rate of murders (33) and only used handguns. There were 24 killed in the Luby's Massacre (3rd), where only handguns were used. There were only handguns used in the U.S.P.S. Massacre (7th) that killed 15. The Birmingham shooting (8th) claimed 14 lives with only handguns, while Fort Hood (9th) claimed 13 with only a handgun. That is five of the top ten massacres in the list using only handguns. Those five accounted for 99 of 164 deaths, more than half at 60.4%.

Meanwhile, at the bottom of the list is Lindhurst High, claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Luigi's claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Thurston High claiming 4 (2.8%) lives, Royal Oak Postal Shooting claiming 5 (3.5%) lives, an air force base shooting claiming 5 (3.5%) lives and the Clatrans Maintenance Yard claiming 5 (3.5%) lives. Of the ten lowest deaths, the six listed all had an assault weapon.

And, for the record, Virginia Tech was conducted with a .22 caliber Walther P22 and a 9mm Glock. Those are not even "large caliber" weapons. So realistically and statistically, assault rifles are not the primary weapon of choice. They are not even the primary killers. Of all the events, the 26 that used assault weapons killed 222 of 513 people. That is less than half, at 43.3%. This percentage does not calculate the actual number killed by the assault rifles, but rather the total number of people killed in an event that had an assault weapon. That statistic can be considered artificially high because in cases like Aurora, Colorado, the assault weapon malfunctioned with less than 30 rounds expended. The assault weapon did not necessarily kill all 222 of those victims.

Are you saying that all weapons should be banned?

 

[chickened]

In an ideal world, no one would be killed by another human being, however, I personally see a difference between someone being killed while committing a crime vs someone being killed while going to a movie, or to school. How many of the inner city youths are shot while involved in something illegal?

I will pretend I am pro gun ban for a moment... it doesn't matter what they were doing guns kill. Does that sound rational? The police kil innocentl people in pursuits frequently and during shootouts. I think you hit the nail on the head... we do not live in a perfect world, there are bad people who want to hurt or kill us, the police cannot be there when we need them and I want to be able to defend myself. What if that eight bullet from my ten round clip is the only one that finds its mark or if there are more than one bad guy? Gun laws that target criminals would get overwhelming support we just need someone with the guts to sponsor such a bill.

 

[Demosthine]

In an ideal world, no one would be killed by another human being, however, I personally see a difference between someone being killed while committing a crime vs someone being killed while going to a movie, or to school. How many of the inner city youths are shot while involved in something illegal?

Perhaps it's a limited comprehension on my part, but the way I read that comes across that the inner city youths are doing things illegal and thus don't deserve "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." They should be abandoned? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. There are excellent kids that, due to parental circumstances, have grown up in the worst parts of society imaginable and come out all the better for it. Let's not write these kids and their families. If you look at a large portion of inner city homicides, kids are killing kids. In many places, such as Los Angeles and Chicago, firearms are heavily restricted. Even in the very lax state of Arizona, anyone under the age of 21 is not allowed to possess a handgun without strict limitations of parents being involved, approved training, etc. So these kids are already possessing illegally obtained (to them) firearms in areas that are generally illegal to be carrying a weapon anyway.

And that's one of the things that much of the true gun advocate crowd has been screaming for for years. Fix the problems at the root. Seek at the disease at the source of the infection. As a whole, America is overly concerned with children starving in Africa, babies being killed in China because they aren't male, or the number of people dying in various third-world countries due to disease. We spend billions, if not trillions, on a national level, both publicly and privately, to combat these things. In the meantime, an estimated 25% of American children on American soil go hungry every day. Our education system is a dismal failure on many levels and can't even get the funding to properly staff our schools. Provide full mental health treatment to those who need it. We need to be focusing on our societal problems that Americans are having and ensure our own population is thoroughly taken care of.

I am not saying that there is no sadness about the failings and pathetic conditions of the rest of the world. But if we can not take care of ourselves, how can we ever expect to actually be productive on the world level?