Upset.......

[featherhead]

I have a couple of charcoal hens. If they laid eggs, and if those eggs were fertile, it's not something I would hide. Many breeders could use that information to know that it CAN happen. I'm not a breeder (my birds are pets) and I don't have the resources or knowledge or desire to spend 9 years working with genetics. While I admire the people who do have the time and patience, it's not on my radar. Many of us probably fall into this category as hobbyists. I support the breeders and their work, I just don't do it myself. Thank you, AquaEyes and the other genetics experts, for sharing your knowledge.

 

[SuperPeacockman]

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I thought that too, but then I realized they are 2011 birds. Still underpriced but more understandable.

 

[Glenmar]

Quote:
These aren't "secrets." It's genetics, a part of science. The principles of how genes work are out there for anyone to learn, if they cared to bother. I would feel more disdain for the breeder who told people something didn't work, while he was doing it in his own breeder pens, just to avoid competition. That is dishonesty, and a mar on someone's reputation, in my opinion.

Strangely, in other areas of BYC, people are more than willing to help other breeders out with their goals. The Olive Egger thread is all about people who decided to experiment with breeding blue-egg-laying breeds with dark-brown-egg-laying breeds. Information is freely exchanged, eggs are sold by breeders who fully disclose how they got what they got. I don't understand why there is such a veil of secrecy that seems to be maintained with peafowl.

Once these birds are sold, what the new owner decides to do with them is the owner's business. Peafowl are not copyrighted or patented. I see the same questions posted here all the time -- "If I have this and breed it to that, what will I get?" The same people offer assistance by saying what they will get. But as the Chinese proverb says, "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, he will eat for a lifetime." I'm attempting to show how things work, and how people can be creative in their breeding. This is no more a "trade-secret" to put breeders out of business than cooking lessons are something that will cause all restaurants to close.

 

[Exotics R Us]

Quote:
. Many breeders could use that information to know that it CAN happen. I'm not a breeder (my birds are pets) and I don't have the resources or knowledge or desire to spend 9 years working with genetics. While I admire the people who do have the time and patience, it's not on my radar. Many of us probably fall into this category as hobbyists. I support the breeders and their work, I just don't do it myself. Thank you, AquaEyes and the other genetics experts, for sharing your knowledge.

You must have missed something somewhere, we wasn't even talking about hiding anything about charcoal hens laying fertile eggs because if they did that would be a MIRACLE and worth talking about.

Ricky

 

[deerman]

Quote:
. Many breeders could use that information to know that it CAN happen. I'm not a breeder (my birds are pets) and I don't have the resources or knowledge or desire to spend 9 years working with genetics. While I admire the people who do have the time and patience, it's not on my radar. Many of us probably fall into this category as hobbyists. I support the breeders and their work, I just don't do it myself. Thank you, AquaEyes and the other genetics experts, for sharing your knowledge.

You must have missed something somewhere, we wasn't even talking about hiding anything about charcoal hens laying fertile eggs because if they did that would be a MIRACLE and worth talking about.

Ricky

Fact is there has been spalding charcoal hens(1/4) that have layed, reason i was working on add more green blood, last year i hatch some 50% spalding charcoal hen , looking back i regret i gave them to someone, who is not working with charcoal, still have the spalding peacock and hens all 50% split to charcoal...some of mine did make it to a breeder that know genetic.

Also know of a breeders that had charcoal hens in other patterns that layed.

 

[Exotics R Us]

Quote:

These aren't "secrets." It's genetics, a part of science

. The principles of how genes work are out there for anyone to learn, if they cared to bother. I would feel more disdain for the breeder who told people something didn't work, while he was doing it in his own breeder pens, just to avoid competition. That is dishonesty, and a mar on someone's reputation, in my opinion.

Strangely, in other areas of BYC, people are more than willing to help other breeders out with their goals. The Olive Egger thread is all about people who decided to experiment with breeding blue-egg-laying breeds with dark-brown-egg-laying breeds. Information is freely exchanged, eggs are sold by breeders who fully disclose how they got what they got. I don't understand why there is such a veil of secrecy that seems to be maintained with peafowl.

Once these birds are sold, what the new owner decides to do with them is the owner's business. Peafowl are not copyrighted or patented. I see the same questions posted here all the time -- "If I have this and breed it to that, what will I get?" The same people offer assistance by saying what they will get. But as the Chinese proverb says, "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, he will eat for a lifetime." I'm attempting to show how things work, and how people can be creative in their breeding. This is no more a "trade-secret" to put breeders out of business than cooking lessons are something that will cause all restaurants to close.​

This maybe so, but it could be the breeders secret because he or she was the one that did the genetic thing bred all these together with years and years of work and if they didn't won't anyone to know "their secret" then where would you start? because without them telling you then I would say it's their secret. So by the time you got it right they would have already sold lots of chicks and now not worth as much, that is if you are in it for the money to help pay your feed bill for raising all these peachicks to hatch the few you were after, then in 2 years breed all these back to see if you hatch anymore and if not then you have to wait another 2 years to do it again.

Ricky

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
I dont have a dog in this, but what's the difference?

New colors verses some genetic secret that corrects a major flaw in an existing color? They both would have to have been developed by an individual threw years of trial and error, right? To me, mixing two colors in the peafowl world is just as big a miracle as a charcoal laying a fertile eggs anyway.

But all this aside, even if a new color was developed.
yes if it hasnt been released to the public yet, I could see an issue with disclosing the breeders info.
BUT....once that breeder sell 1 single bird from it, it's over. It's all public knowledge then, especially if they post it on sites themselves.
BUT by this point of initial sell, the trade "secret" to create it is pointless anyway.
Even if they are $2000 a yearling pair like the taupes were when they came out, it's still not worth the effort to try to spend 10 years to make it yourself when you can just buy them. By the time you make them, they'll be $150 a pair anyway.


In sort, honestly, it really doesnt matter, because there are only 4-5 breeders in the whole US of A that are going to go threw all the time, years of work, record keeping, , pen space, etc required to follow threw with all this. 2 have already been mentioned here. And trust me, they dont need to know any secrets, they are the ones who discovered them in the first place. The average web forum browser wont even understand how to follow threw with it, much less have the time and dedication to follow threw with making it happen.

I do agree with the poster who mentioned how in other fowl, folks tend to freely help others with breeding questions.
As AquaEyes mentioned, it's all just genetics. If you get the basis of it down you cane make anything you want. Shoot there are calculators on the web for virtually everything any more that will teach you how to do it and what to use etc. So the idea that you have to steal from another breeder to get this info is kinda getting out dated in todays world of genetics pros and their on line calculators.

Oh and by the way, some bantams out price most all peafowl, except for the super new ones, til the new wears off. It's very common for rare breeds to be $250- $500 pr, especially in the oriental and long tailed breeds, yet info is spread freely between members of their communities on how to breed them

 

[AquaEyes]

Quote:
I dont have a dog in this, but what's the difference?

New colors verses some genetic secret that corrects a major flaw in an existing color? They both would have to have been developed by an individual threw years of trial and error, right? To me, mixing two colors in the peafowl world is just as big a miracle as a charcoal laying a fertile eggs anyway.

But all this aside, even if a new color was developed.
yes if it hasnt been released to the publis yet, I could see an issue with disclosing the breeders info.
BUT....once that breeder sell 1 single bird from it, it's over. It's all public knowlegde then, especially if they post it on sites themselves.
BUT by this point of initial sell, the trade "secret" to create it is pointless anyway.
Even if they are $2000 a yearling pair like the taupes were when they came out, it's still not worth the effort to try to spen 10 years to make it yourself when you can just buy them. By the time you make them, they'll be $150 a pair anyway.


Insort, honestly, it really doesnt matter, because there are only 4-5 breeders in the whole US of A that are going to go threw all the time, years of work, record keeping, , pen space, etc required to follow threw with all this. 2 have already been mentioned here. And trust me, they dont need to know any secrets, they are the ones who discovered them in the first place. The average web forum browser wont even understand how to follow threw with it, much less have the time and dedication to follow threw with making it happen.

I do agree with the poster who mentioned how in other fowl, folks tend to freely help others with breeding questions.
As auquaeyes mentioned, it's all just genetics. If you get the basis of it down you cane make anything you want. Shoot there are caluclators on the web for virtually everything any more that will teach you how to do it and what to use etc. So the idea that you have to steal from another breeder to get thsi info is kinda getting out dated in todays world of genetics pros and their on line calculators.

Oh and by the way, some bantams out price most all peafowl, except for the super new ones, til the new wears off. It's very common for rare breeds to be $250- $500 pr, especially in the oriental and long tailed breeds, yet info is spread freely between members of their communities on how to breed them