URGENT REQUEST!!!!! Lost 8 chicks :'( NEED ADVICE...

[bjw113]

Thank you so much for your input... Last week's shipment I felt sure was due to shipping stress, but this week the temps were MUCH cooler and I didn't know what to think. I also didn't think it was due to hatchery problems OR the possibility of Mareks (which is why I never DID mention the name of the hatchery). We did lose one of the babies today, they survived overnight, and my husband kept dipping beaks this morning. The remaining baby is on her feet, we'll see what the day brings. The remaining 20 chicks are running around being busy little chicks and that makes my heart happy. It just seems so unfair to have some just fighting to hang on. We did provide them with the electrolyte water and the gel stuff to help hydrate them. Thank you ALL so much for your input. I have been aware of the health problems surrounding Marek's, however I did not think it was possible for this to be the problem with 2 and 3 day old chicks. As always, I'm indebted to all of you for your help. We just get so attached to our babies, it is hard to lose any of them.

 

[mithious]

Day old chicks do not arrive with Marek's. It's great everyone wants to educate about Marek's but the OP wants help with shipping stress. I would think the responses should be something helpful to deal with shipping stress and not how to prevent Marek's. Her chicks were vaccinated and they aren't even old enough to have developed any disease yet.

I am going to suggest feeding the chick a little bit of egg yolk and keep getting it to drink but don't force it to drink as you might get water in the lungs.

We had one that started to go downhill right after arriving it got week and wobbly and it simply had not learned to drink even though we dipped beaks at least twice to teach them. The one needed a little more help so we helped her drink every so often and when she started drinking on her own she got stronger and started eating. We had vitamins and electolites in the water
. Now she is fine.

That's not true...stress is one of the things that can bring about a mareks outbreak...and again, I have no idea if it IS mareks and never said it was, as there is no necropsy been done...unfortunately, chicks CAN arrive with disease,mareks, or pick it up from YOU, once they arrive...it's all on the thread I recommended...but if you choose not to read what the professionals have posted, that is your decision! Just please don't spread misinformation around, as people will take it as fact. If you have a citation to back up what you say, that NO chicks EVER arrive with mareks or ANY disease, please post link to it! I would VERY much like to read it, as I am researching this disease in order to keep my flock from ever getting it!!!! Thank you very much!

 

[bjw113]

http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/mareks2.pdf

Additional information on Mareks specifically states that the incubation is 4 to 12 weeks AFTER the chicken is exposed...

 

[mithious]

What is says exactly, " depending on the strength of the virus, and the variety and strain of the chicken."

I couldn't copy/paste off the pfd...but that is the REST of the statement you left out....

According to the link I posted above, they are seeing a more virulent and vaccine resistant ( mutated) strain/strains of mareks, PLUS the vaccine is only 90% and some say can be as low as 75% affective AND does NOT stop the virus, but only the tumors. It DOES help build immunities in the chicks and may save a flock from dying, but does NOT stop them from contracting the virus OR being carriers of the virus.

Also, since chicks have no real immune system, which is why they can come down with cocci as day old chicks, if they are already immune suppressed, then that would also make them more susceptible to mareks...

There are NO cold hard facts in science! Viruses are mutating. Science is finding out things that they never knew before, with each passing day...which is why I recommended that thread, as some of the OP's are currently going through mareks in the flock and finding, from first hand experience, that the science and fact are not supporting each other!

Plus, you do realize that article was first printed in 1979? right?

Again, I'm not saying that this gal has mareks in her chicks, what I am saying is, it IS possible to have chicks with mareks...and even though the transmition through the egg is lower, it is not 100% negative either...just as the vaccine is not 100% affective...

Science is built on a theory, supported by many hypothesis...and not exact, like say mathmatics!!! Science is also, always changing!!! After reading that thread about OP's dealing with mareks, I can not say, with 100% surety, that day old chicks are totally safe from arriving, or getting mareks, or even being carriers...thus said...is it safer to order through a hatchery that vaccinates for mareks...heck yeah...does it stop the disease, nope...can the chicks get sick as young as a couple days old? I don't know, but would have to say, according to RECENT studies, yup!!!

Here is a hypothetical scenario, we have a pandemic, who is affect the most? The very young and the very old. Why? Because they are immunosuppressed. Does that stand true in livestock? Yes!!!! Is that 100%, nope.

Mareks is the most contagious, and most widely spread, chicken disease, ESPECIALLY in back yard, small flock settings. Why? Most people don't even know about it, or are misinformed, or have not kept up with current scientific findings and advancements. Another reason for the back yard flock to have such high rates of mareks is that most don't practice the methods that would help lower the amount of mareks in their flocks, like all in/all out, a closed flock, or biosecurity, to name a few examples!!! Lots don't even vaccinate for it or any other disease. Now that is another whole discussion, in and of itself, as there are many arguments for and against vaccinating vs breeding for immunity and I aint going there now!!!

As on OP put it, this disease is like a ghost, the vector for transmition is tremendous, for both the chickens and their owners...it is in the chickens dander and feathers, is airborne for several miles,, lives for very very long periods of time in the environment ect ect, and can be tracked on peoples shoes, clothes, hair, hands, equipment, feed bags, bales of straw and on and on....plus there is more than one stain of meraks...I can't remember exactly how many..but maybe 6 or so?
Bit I really can't remember exactly and new strains are either popping up, being found, or mutating....

1979? seriously? Whatever, I'm done...I will continue to research for myself!!! Thanks for the link!!!

 

[bjw113]

Mithious, I really appreciate your attempt to educate the entire forum on Marek's disease. I am not ignorant to the hazards, risks, etc that the disease would pose to my flock. You yourself stated that the hatchery industry has a less than 1% in their flocks and stated that we need to do our best to meet that number. I applaud your intent, HOWEVER, with the hatchery industry having a less than 1% incidence rating, do you really think it was relevant to post ad-nauseum about the dangers of Marek's disease.. and while you repeatedly stated that you didn't say MY CHICKS had Marek's, you go on and on about the hazards of this disease. I do not think you EVER addressed the possibility that it COULD be shipping stress as the chicks were less than THREE DAYS OLD, but as you as adeptly said, whatever!!!

I was looking for ways to save my chicks based on the VERY REAL POSSIBILITY that it was shipping stress and not some wild goose chase that it could be an exotic disease or Marek's. This is tantamount to looking for a zebra where there are dozens of horses present because one sees hoof prints. I DO understand and appreciate your concern to educate the world with all your knowledge regarding Mareks, but I would have REALLY appreciated some no nonsense practical advice on what experienced chicken owners have done in the past to save day old baby chicks who MOST LIKELY (!!!) are stressed.

I have owned my chickens for 3+ years and am EXTREMELY careful with my care of them. I still have 21 of my original 24. I truly was just looking to see if anyone else had some tricks of the trade to offer me in regards to stress and heat issues because it was VERY VERY hot and humid last week in southern Ohio and SE Tennessee.

 

[bjw113]

IrishAcreFarm, Most likely we are both experiencing shipping stress especially since it was so hot last week. The one thing I have determined personally, is that I will never order chicks in the middle of the summer again. I will order like I did with my first shipment (in April) and look to get them mid-May when shipping temps are less likely to cause such stress to the chicks. The hatchery suggests plain Greek yogurt, and scrambled soft eggs (something with high protein) for the chicks. IF my baby makes it overnight, I will try some scrambled eggs tomorrow. In the meantime, I have her drinking the vitamin/mineral/electrolyte water. I hope you have wonderful success with your chicks and enjoy them as much as I do mine. Thank you for your response!

 

[IrishAcreFarm]

Thank you bjw113!! I hope you have some luck with yours as well! I agree, I will never do a summer delivery as well! Love the yogurt and scrambled egg tip, and will try that as well!!

 

[mithious]

Mithious, I really appreciate your attempt to educate the entire forum on Marek's disease. I am not ignorant to the hazards, risks, etc that the disease would pose to my flock. You yourself stated that the hatchery industry has a less than 1% in their flocks and stated that we need to do our best to meet that number. I applaud your intent, HOWEVER, with the hatchery industry having a less than 1% incidence rating, do you really think it was relevant to post ad-nauseum about the dangers of Marek's disease.. and while you repeatedly stated that you didn't say MY CHICKS had Marek's, you go on and on about the hazards of this disease. I do not think you EVER addressed the possibility that it COULD be shipping stress as the chicks were less than THREE DAYS OLD, but as you as adeptly said, whatever!!!

I was looking for ways to save my chicks based on the VERY REAL POSSIBILITY that it was shipping stress and not some wild goose chase that it could be an exotic disease or Marek's. This is tantamount to looking for a zebra where there are dozens of horses present because one sees hoof prints. I DO understand and appreciate your concern to educate the world with all your knowledge regarding Mareks, but I would have REALLY appreciated some no nonsense practical advice on what experienced chicken owners have done in the past to save day old baby chicks who MOST LIKELY (!!!) are stressed.

I have owned my chickens for 3+ years and am EXTREMELY careful with my care of them. I still have 21 of my original 24. I truly was just looking to see if anyone else had some tricks of the trade to offer me in regards to stress and heat issues because it was VERY VERY hot and humid last week in southern Ohio and SE Tennessee.

No dear, what I said, was the hatcheries have a less than 1% loss,( due to their all in/all out practices. since losing 60% of their chicks back in the 70's to mareks ) Maybe I could have explained that better to that OP ...but that is irrelevant now...I'm sorry you lost so many chicks, that must be heart breaking for you!! I am very glad that you got soo many replies, with ideas on how to try to help with shipping stress and sooo sorry it didn't help!!! I was NOT the one to ask if it might be mareks to begin with and do NOT have extensive knowledge on mareks! Just what I have read here, on BYC, and my heart was heavy for those OP's that lost their dreams, so I read the whole thread!!! and thought about what our state is doing to try to stop the spread of MS/MG here....thought if we all worked together, like here is, we could really make a dent in some of these diseases, since they are not exotic diseases, but are very prevalent in the back yard chicken owners flocks...especially mareks! and apparently here with MS/MG! I had NO idea that there were so many diseases now, and that so many back yard flocks are affected! WE did not have these issues back when I was raising chickens! Or if we did, our flock was not affected and I was not aware of it! It was a shock to find out about! I obviously over reacted!!! In my defense, I just wanted people to read that darn thread, as there was soo much info, on sooo many of the issues, deaths and diseases, I have seen posted on this raising baby chick thread!!! and the people were on that thread were professionals..I thought they could better help!!!

My angst was NOT meant towards YOU...I got a big touchy with the OP that posted a 1979 article to "back up" there statement as it was so out dated that it was irrelevant! and felt like a slap in the face, or being laughed at!!! When all I was trying to do, was lead people to a thread that, not only broke my heart, but also had sooo much info that was soo helpful on many fronts!!!

I am not used to hatcheries, we didn't have a lot of them, back when I was raising chickens with my Daddy,( back in the 60's and on ) but got them from breeders...so it was not only heartbreaking to read that thread, but I was shocked to learn what I did!!! I also was concerned that you had mentioned such high losses and from two different shipments, under different circumstances with the temps, but from the same hatchery...again, that thread I was trying to get people to read, had all kinds of ideas on saving chicks, not just from mareks, but stress, and other things and diseases and since I am no expert, I thought the experts were the place to send people...Oh was I ever wrong!!!! I should've just kept my mouth shut!!! I do apologize for losing my patience with that other OP on your thread though!!! That was wrong!!! My intentions were well meant, in trying to lead people to that thread of professionals, but I should have started another thread!!!

I am sooo sorry for your losses!!! It truly breaks my heart that the little ones had such a hard time and you had to go through that!!! VERY glad you got some good advice from some of the OP's and that the rest of your chicks are ok!!!

I wish you the best!
Mithious

 

[mithious]

Although they can make a complete recovery, they do remain carriers of the disease and once it is brought onto your property, it is near impossible to clean the property, if not impossible...it only takes ONE bird to take the dreams away!

Some choose to cull the flock, others choose to maintain a closed flock! There is a great thread on this in the diseases part here...highly recommend it to anyone with a hint that they might have this in their flock! Or maybe just want to be more aware, incase they come across this in their own flocks!!!

It's a real horrible disease for a flock and unfortunately, I have read that the vaccine is only 90% effective...

What hatchery, or where did you get these chicks from? It would help other OP's to not order from them, and even if it isn't Mareks, it would keep others from having to go through this also!

The only way to really know, is to have one of the chicks tested. If you suspect this disease, I would highly recommend taking one to your local extension for testing to be sure! They usually will do the testing for a lot less than a vet would! We practice biosecurity here!

Praying it's just shipping stress!!!

And yes, I was truly praying for you and your chicks, that is WAS just shipping stress!!! I have even prayed for my own chicks, during their first thunder storm, and they were piling in a corner and nothing I did could stop them, so I asked God to help them! I was SURE I would wake up in the morning to find 2 or 3 smooshed dead chicks. Guess He answered my prayer with a yes, because all the chicks were fine the next morning!!! Thank God! Maybe that's silly, to pray for chickens???? but I do believe prayer works, so why not pray for chickens? They are God's creation also.

Still praying for you and your chicks too.

 

[Eggsoteric]

So sorry to hear about your chicks. Definitely sounds like shipping stress. Had the same thing happen with some Cuckoo Marans chicks that were ordered and shipped to my local Southern States (this was back in April and we ended up having a bit of a cold snap the night they were shipped). While I had only placed a hold on 5 chicks, SS had placed an order of 50+ chicks with the hatchery. When they arrived, most were DOA, however, there were some survivors (about a dozen or so, though the woman @ SS told me that the survivors were all in distress (on their backs, seizing, wry neck and as she statted, "on their way out")). Even though I wasn't optimistic about their survival, I did end up taking 7 of them home with me to see if supportive care would bring them back. I had some Poly-vi-sol (without iron) on hand; gave them each a few drops of vitamins directly and administered water with an eyedropper (I was very careful in administering with the eyedropper so they wouldn't aspirate the liquid). None could stand to make it to a water source so I monitored them and administered water (and vitamins if I felt they needed it) every 30 minutes or so. Though some took a little longer than others, they all ended up perking up before the day was out and eventually they all made it.

Again, so sorry about your loss.