US Crele and White Sport Legbar Breeders - Alternative Legbar Group, for those not breeding to the P

[ChicKat]

Just commenting based on what Ive read. For CLB it may be true but everything Ive read says that the whites wont breed completely true. Im thinking this because the male will have unexpressed barring genes as well as the "mutated" expressed one causing the white sport. I originally read about white sports appearing in barred rock breeding programs those are not hybrid birds. Not saying that you shouldn't expect a high percentage of white sports but the genetic lottery might be difficult to predict because of the nature of how the white sport appears. Its obviously genetics but its called a sport for a reason. The higher percentage of them you have been seeing does seem to indicate that there should be some method to at least increase the expected percentage.

I hope I am wrong for your sake.

Hey caychris!

You bring up some interesting points.

-- For one thing I think that the name white sport arose because people weren't even thinking about a recessive white gene when they first appeared.... It should have always been recessive white IMO.

Next, --- so interesting that in BPR programs a random white appeared...that could be the link-back to where CL got recessive white -- because BPR is part of the make-up

Since - genes is just "the math of it" -- (a la Punnett's square) -- The white should appear with the frequency that duluthralphie was experiencing -- and the separation of the two carriers of recessive would/could explain the disappearance of those in his hatches.

So perhaps the gene pool of recessive white is narrow -- and you know Mother Nature doesn't like narrow gene pools as a general rule -- at some point inbreeding will show up
Here's a google search:
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=coeficient of inbreeding
note a lot of these pages are from dog breeding and horses.....just sayin'. ;O)
Nice diagram and definition from that:
A coefficient of inbreeding can be calculated for an individual, as a measure for the amount of pedigree collapse within that individual's genealogy.







Those of us with Isbars experience(d) the narrow genetic pool.

From what I hear the white recessive predates the Reese imports -- so all the white recessives are related to just a few birds from 2011 --

Although difficult to breed -- they should according to logic breed true -- My concern is that they will not be autosexable --- Again -- I define breeding true as the offspring replicate the parents -- so a CL that carries the recessive although a parent couldn't be considered a contributor to the 'breeding true' equation IMO.

ETA - when I'm doing complex punnett squares, I use Henk's chicken calculator -- you may be able to try this with recessive white if that gene is on the charts..... and it could give you examples of the phenotypes and genotypes as well as a Punnett square..... For example, I have a project in mind and the phenotype I want would be 1/22 according to the calculations -- and that was even incomplete for some things I didn't enter like earlobe and egg color.... Makes it easier on the tired old brain to have it computed IMO.

 

[MeepBeep]

My understanding is that the whites wont breed whites really even if bred together. (Though you might get a higher percentage of white sports than normal) I think its a barring gene mutation that occurs periodically. At any rate good luck with them.

Although difficult to breed -- they should according to logic breed true -- My concern is that they will not be autosexable

Personally I'm of the opinion that a lot of hearsay and rumors are being taken as fact... Do we really have confirmation from experienced breeders confirming definitively that they won't breed true or are hard to breed together? I see a lot of people repeating they 'heard' this to be the case but I have yet to see an experienced breeder confirm it to be true...

As for autosexable, they are certainly a little harder to sex due to the suppression of color, but I believe if the goal is to keep them autosexable it can be maintained and even strengthened but culling, much the same as it needs to be done to some regular CL lines where the autosexing is fading...

Either way, come this winter and next spring I will have first hand experience to back up or dismiss the claims they are hard to breed or don't breed true as I have 5 hens and 4 roosters that will be worked into a white sport breeding program later this year...

 

[duluthralphie]

Personally I'm of the opinion that a lot of hearsay and rumors are being taken as fact... Do we really have confirmation from experienced breeders confirming definitively that they won't breed true or are hard to breed together? I see a lot of people repeating they 'heard' this to be the case but I have yet to see an experienced breeder confirm it to be true...

As for autosexable, they are certainly a little harder to sex due to the suppression of color, but I believe if the goal is to keep them autosexable it can be maintained and even strengthened but culling, much the same as it needs to be done to some regular CL lines where the autosexing is fading...

Either way, come this winter and next spring I will have first hand experience to back up or dismiss the claims they are hard to breed or don't breed true as I have 5 hens and 4 roosters that will be worked into a white sport breeding program later this year...

I have talked to a very experienced breeder, he says they will breed true, if they are white sports and have two recessive white genes they can only pass on a recessive white gene.

I will know for sure in the spring, like you. My pair that have the white recessive gene passed it on to about 25% of their babies, Which is correct according to the Punnett Square. The thing I am finding with the sports is how fragile they are. I assume that is do to inbreeding and the shallow gene pool of CLB's overall. I plan to have a few breeding projects for white sports next year. I lost about 50% of my white sports compared to less than 5% over all others.


White sports to white sports should give me white sports. 100.% outcome expected.

I will breed white sports to recessive white carriers should give me 50% sports and 50$ carriers expected . By doing this and breeding the carriers I will start to expand the gene pool and hopefully get less fragile birds.

Lastly I will try to identify the recessive white carrier and breed them, This should put me back in the 25% range on whites.


I have a flock of 14 whites at this time. I am going to get rid of all CLB's next year except the white sports. I really like the white sports and think they are beautiful. The Blue egg is a plus.


I have not been able to sex mine, I do not think I will ever be able to auto-sex, but that is the least important trait to me.

I Would be happy to have white sports as my only birds, I think they are that beautiful. I have yet to have someone see them and not want them.

 

[MeepBeep]

I have talked to a very experienced breeder, he says they will breed true, if they are white sports and have two recessive white genes they can only pass on a recessive white gene.

If it is indeed a single recessive gene (I suspect it is) that would certainly be the case...

The thing I am finding with the sports is how fragile they are.  I assume that is do to inbreeding and  the shallow gene pool of CLB's overall.  I plan to have a few breeding projects for white sports next year.  I lost about 50% of my white sports compared to less than 5% over all others.

Can't say I have that same experience, I have not lost any white sports... Set 12 white sport/carrier eggs this year and hatched out 8 healthy white sports, that are all growing as expected with no signs of weakness...

I'm sure it has to do with the source of birds and how many times that source have been inbred, instead of line bread and outbred over the years...

 

[duluthralphie]

If it is indeed a single recessive gene (I suspect it is) that would certainly be the case...
Can't say I have that same experience, I have not lost any white sports... Set 12 white sport/carrier eggs this year and hatched out 8 healthy white sports, that are all growing as expected with no signs of weakness...

I'm sure it has to do with the source of birds and how many times that source have been inbred, instead of line bread and outbred over the years...

I think you could be very correct. I know I will try to expand the gene pool as much as possible. I have another source of white sports to make trades with, but our birds are cousins, but that better than brother and sister.


It is interesting you did not lose one. I hatched about 30 and have 14 left. However, some of the deaths were murphy's law. One strangled in a feeder. (never had that happen before). One crawled into a weird space on MHP and died. two died in a stampede of chicks when I changed water (and other stupid ways chicks commit suicide). Nothing else dies like that, just the sports that I really really really want.

 

[caychris]

Personally I'm of the opinion that a lot of hearsay and rumors are being taken as fact... Do we really have confirmation from experienced breeders confirming definitively that they won't breed true or are hard to breed together? I see a lot of people repeating they 'heard' this to be the case but I have yet to see an experienced breeder confirm it to be true...

As for autosexable, they are certainly a little harder to sex due to the suppression of color, but I believe if the goal is to keep them autosexable it can be maintained and even strengthened but culling, much the same as it needs to be done to some regular CL lines where the autosexing is fading...

Either way, come this winter and next spring I will have first hand experience to back up or dismiss the claims they are hard to breed or don't breed true as I have 5 hens and 4 roosters that will be worked into a white sport breeding program later this year...

Good luck I think they are very pretty and striking so good luck. Can't wait to see how it goes.

 

[ChicKat]

I have talked to a very experienced breeder, he says they will breed true, if they are white sports and have two recessive white genes they can only pass on a recessive white gene.

I will know for sure in the spring, like you. My pair that have the white recessive gene passed it on to about 25% of their babies, Which is correct according to the Punnett Square. The thing I am finding with the sports is how fragile they are. I assume that is do to inbreeding and the shallow gene pool of CLB's overall. I plan to have a few breeding projects for white sports next year. I lost about 50% of my white sports compared to less than 5% over all others.


White sports to white sports should give me white sports. 100.% outcome expected.

I will breed white sports to recessive white carriers should give me 50% sports and 50$ carriers expected . By doing this and breeding the carriers I will start to expand the gene pool and hopefully get less fragile birds.

Lastly I will try to identify the recessive white carrier and breed them, This should put me back in the 25% range on whites.


I have a flock of 14 whites at this time. I am going to get rid of all CLB's next year except the white sports. I really like the white sports and think they are beautiful. The Blue egg is a plus.


I have not been able to sex mine, I do not think I will ever be able to auto-sex, but that is the least important trait to me.

I Would be happy to have white sports as my only birds, I think they are that beautiful. I have yet to have someone see them and not want them.

Hi duluthralphie--
I really appreciate this insight. (probably too, because it is one proof of the theories that I've had for years)--- 1. the recessives will behave as double dose of recessives and 'breed true' and 2. Recessive whites (because they have now lost the duckwing + barring characteristics that Punnett discovered in the 1930's that create the autosexing breeds) won't be autosexing.

A question arises that if they are not autosexing could they even be considered as legbars. Since autosexing is the least important trait to you-- it probably also wouldn't matter what they are called. For the legbar community, though -- autosexing was the primary attraction to the breed for many if not most people.

 

[MeepBeep]

I really appreciate this insight.  (probably too, because it is one proof of the theories that I've had for years)--- 1. the recessives will behave as double dose of recessives and 'breed true' and 2. Recessive whites (because they have now lost the duckwing + barring characteristics that Punnett discovered in the 1930's that create the autosexing breeds) won't be autosexing.

Day one whites still have the duckwing and barring characteristics while in fuz, they are just muted and harder to see...

 

[ChicKat]

Day one whites still have the duckwing and barring characteristics while in fuz, they are just muted and harder to see...

do you have any photos of 3rd or 2nd generation recessive whites that have patterns? I've seen photos of patterns from split parents that were very faint - but not of anyting beyond that. Would love to see 'em.

 

[duluthralphie]

I sure am not qualified to say if they are auto-sexing or not. I have seen faint head spots but it could be my imagination too. I know I was not able to sex mine. They are first generation coming from pure CLB's with the recessive gene.

The same guy that told me they would breed true told me you should be able to sex them when they hatch. Either my vision is not good enough, I am too old, or have no idea what I am looking for as I could not do it.

However, to the person buying a CLB the auto sexing is important. To me who sells a ton of them, I hate it. It forces me to raise the boys as skinny fryers or to kill them at hatch. Neither is a choice I like.. The other thing is people buying a little girl have a hard time believing a girl can have a spot on their heads. Which we all know they can. But to the casual buyer of one or two chicks that read the boys all have spots go nuts over a spot on the girls head.

I am not a fan of autosexing. for the above reasons.