Vaccinate or Not

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

So it can't be passed into eggs?

No. Other viruses can, but not MDV. One of the saving graces of this disease...

 

[Muscovy Wunda]

I've enjoyed reading most this thread (its morning I've only had one cup of coffee so only read half). Vaccines are very hard to come by where I am, my vet gave me a funny look when I asked. But I feel confident in continuing my natural remedy supporting a healthy immune system, and as required by our workplace on this property anyway, the come clean go clean approach. We are big on biosecurity. Unfortunately not even that can stop mozzies (mosquitoes). I had a hen alittle while back who appeared to have developed fowl pox. We have neighbours that I thought were a safe distance away to avoid spread (10km) but I never thought how far mosquitoes could fly. I quarrantined the hen instantly and deep cleaned. I think the rest are okay but I now am wiser and investing in ways to deterr the bitey bugs.

 

[Meg-in-MT]

You may have said this before so sorry if I missed it but did your unvaccinated ones ever get sick from being near the vaccinated ones or were they okay? And did you house them together or just on the same property? I’m moving the chicks outside this weekend and they are, of course, not vaccinated so I’m a little nervous about putting them near my vaccinated birds but from what I understand, they should be fine?? And the fact I’ve had turkeys on the property should protect them from some strains of Mereks?

I think we can worry ourselves to death with "what-ifs?", but what would you do with your chicks otherwise? You have a flock that have shown no signs or symptoms of Mareks, so I would be unconcerned with introducing new chicks to the existing. If you introduce new chicks and they all die, then obviously you have a problem. But what are the odds? If you decide not to introduce them, what then?

If my way of thinking is flawed on this, someone please tell me why.

 

[Meg-in-MT]

No. Other viruses can, but not MDV. One of the saving graces of this disease...

So I know nothing about genetics and how/what/why things are or are not passed along. Why is it that immunity is passed but the virus isn't? Doesn't there have to be some virus level in the chick to have immunity?

 

[ShrekDawg]

I think we can worry ourselves to death with "what-ifs?", but what would you do with your chicks otherwise? You have a flock that have shown no signs or symptoms of Mareks, so I would be unconcerned with introducing new chicks to the existing. If you introduce new chicks and they all die, then obviously you have a problem. But what are the odds? If you decide not to introduce them, what then?

If my way of thinking is flawed on this, someone please tell me why.

Hmm that makes sense and I guess I can’t keep them in the house forever! So they are going to have to go out there at some point. I could put them on the other side of the property but my parents don’t want them in the front so there’s really limited options as to where they could go. I guess I’ll have to take my chances ha

 

[FortCluck]

I think we can worry ourselves to death with "what-ifs?", but what would you do with your chicks otherwise? You have a flock that have shown no signs or symptoms of Mareks, so I would be unconcerned with introducing new chicks to the existing. If you introduce new chicks and they all die, then obviously you have a problem. But what are the odds? If you decide not to introduce them, what then?

If my way of thinking is flawed on this, someone please tell me why.

Not flawed to me... I think the same way

 

[jolenesdad]

So, you've got lots of people looking at chicks in bins at many Tractor Supplies as I understand it.
It's reasonable to assume the vast majority of these people already have chickens.
Out of the hundreds that pass through such places doors in a week and look into and maybe handle the chicks it seems probable that a significant percentage have been in contact with other chickens. Some of these people will be buying to replace lost birds. Some of this some will have no idea what killed their birds.
I suggest that your other precautions are a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Tractor supply used to have just open bins. Now they’re SUPPOSED to be staff-only in the bins I think. I occasionally order birds through my local feed store however I will only be there at opening when they arrive with the box so I can take my own birds straight from the box home, without them hitting the ground at the store.

But if I walk in there I'll end up getting Marek's... Now how do I buy my feed without buying from a farm, mill, or feed store? Do you know how many chicken owners walk on those properties?

See where I'm getting at It's impossible to avoid it... That's why I say it's more fear-driven. Yes, You can get it from going out in the public, or you could put your chickens in a bubble.

A bit more fear mongering here but that’s the point. You likely cannot go to a feed store without being exposed to things at some point. This disease or another. The latest spreads of VND in California have been traced to a feed store. It scares the crud out of me, that whole situation.

large chicken operations or breeders have a very vested interest in bio security like @Shadrach suggested. That’s paramount to success. Those of us without flocks that large don’t have the capacity to Practice as much biosecurity. I’ve got a toddler... and I’m just happy he doesn’t squeeze too hard or throw poop around. I certainly don’t change his clothes multiple times a day depending on where we went. For me, and others like that, we need vaccinations. It would be ideal to handle through appropriate bio security measures, but, it’s not in the realm for me. Plus, I openly free range and am exposed to some elements far out of my control.

If you see any post about sick or injured chickens on BYC - limping chicken, won't eat, etc, etc, almost always, the symptoms point to a variety of illness, and almost always, Marek's could be one of the reasons the chicken is suffering. The advice by most of the experienced "healers" on BYC almost always say - if it get's better, great, as many survive Marek's. But they also survive strains, sprains, egg bound etc. But if the chicken doesn't survive, or is humanely put down - the recommendation is always to have a state lab necropsy performed.

What percent of those that are recommended for necropsy actual get the necropsy done? That's why looking at the experience of diagnosed Marek's on BYC isn't a good proxy for the incidence of Marek's.

As NPIP certification doesn't test Marek's - doesn't that mean that Marek's isn't a "closed flock" illness?

Great points. I also vaccinate my broilers for mareks, because I grow them all to 12-13 weeks.

Again, thanks to @FortCluck for this thread. Sorry you’re confused... I really appreciate the viewpoints presented.

@KDOGG331 im in a similar situation as you are but further along. I have a flock of mixed birds living together and I’m contemplating figuring out how to vaccinate my adult birds before I move. Moving scares me because I don’t know the land. I love hatching new breeds, but I regret not having some of my favorite birds able to be vaccinated. I even sent @Mixed flock enthusiast a note about vaccinating adult birds earlier today because I want to mitigate my long term concerns.

Like I mentioned, I’ve been maintaining this mixed flock of vaccinated and not for this whole year, and have had no issues, and I have had several hundred birds/chicks through here this year. I think for yours, getting them (and their smell) out is worth the relatively minor risk of you having mareks and not knowing at all. You can make a plan moving forward if those unvaccinated birds become canaries or if you vaccinate them.

@FortCluck around your question of why is it worth it... it comes down to how you manage and perceive your flock.

Commercial operations can’t afford the losses financially... they vaccinate.

Smaller keepers who don’t want to experience the emotional cost of losing their flock... vaccinate.

Lots of people wouldn’t ever go to a vet with their chicken, yet lots of folks here absolutely would. Both are right in their decisions. I think it comes down to can you afford potential losses? Many breeders choose not to vaccinate because the control they have over their birds and knowledge of what’s happening in their flock is more important to them. Even if they had to cull an entire line or flock or relocate their coops, they are prepared to take those measures. But as I mentioned before I think, they’re already culling chicks for vigor anyway. It’s like apples and oranges of chicken keeping. An individual with just a few chicks is certainly not getting rid of the weakest in their group and to avoid heartache, that’s the kind of chick that really needs to be vaccinated.

You just have to decide where you fit on the scale.

 

[Tesumph]

So tesumph had it too or has it too?

Yes. It killed 13 out of 15 of my flock and swept through our entire neighborhood.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Yes. It killed 13 out of 15 of my flock and swept through our entire neighborhood.

That’s awful!!

 

[ChocolateMouse]

My point is though everyone is so worried about Marek's, but it's already all around us so there really is no way of preventing it. The vaccine really doesn't prevent it, does it?

@CSAchook says they vaccinate

I understand what you are saying, but this thread has not really helped me on why people vaccinate except for the few people who have contracted Marek's in their flocks and vaccinate now to protect their future flocks.

The vaccine, ultimately, prevents the symptoms only but not the actual infection. So basically, if a vaccinated chicken is exposed to Mareks it will catch the disease but not die. If an unvaccinated chicken is exposed to Mareks it will catch the disease and probably die.
If an unvaccinated chicken is exposed to a vaccinated chicken, whether or not the unvaccined bird dies depends on whether or not the vaccinated bird has been exposed to Mareks which you have no way of knowing because there's no symptoms.

Vaccinated chickens who have been exposed to Mareks can basically become Typhoid Mary's - carriers that appear healthy but get every unvaccinated bird around them sick. This is why the advice of not to keep a mixed flock (vaccinated-unvaccinated) exists. If you bring vaccinated birds that seem healthy into an unvaccinated flock they may be carriers and get those unvaccinated birds sick.

On the other hand, if you have a vaccinated chicken that has never been exposed to Mareks it's perfectly safe to mix with unvaccinated chickens. But how do you know it's never been exposed to Mareks? You often just don't. So many people treat flocks where all the chickens are vaccinated as mareks positive because you just can't tell.

Now as to whether or not YOU should vaccinate... That depends largely on WHY you're keeping chickens.

For example; If your chickens are pets, their lives may matter deeply to you especially emotionally and so you may want to vaccinate them because that way if they DO get sick they have a real chance of living.
If any of your chickens are diagnosed with Mareks it's probably a good idea to vaccinate, that way your chickens have a chance of living because without it a lot of your birds would die.
If your are a closed flock where birds will never leave you may want to vaccinate just to increase the chances of keeping your flock alive generally.

If your chickens are NOT pets or your flock is Mareks free, you may NOT want to vaccinate because you may want to be aware of if or when Mareks hits your flock. If you, say, breed chickens to sell chicks, pullets or hatching eggs having a Mareks free flock is critically important. Knowingly spreading undisclosed virulent deadly livestock diseases can even be a personal liability that gets you sued. So keeping your flock vaccine free might mean they all die someday (maybe) but it might also save you a lot of risk, money and give your chickens a selling point.

Additionally, as said in the great big Mareks FAQ, many of the vaccines are losing their ability to produce a strong enough immune response as the disease mutates. As it is, most commercial producers consider the Mareks vaccine to be 90% effective at keeping Mareks infected birds symptom free. The other 10% (in commercial flocks) still develop serious symptoms and die from it. That percentage of protected birds has dropped awfully low for some vaccine strains as the virus mutates.
And the prevalence of vaccine use has already bred hotter strains - there's a real chance of the disease continuing to get worse and the vaccines continuing to be less effective as people continue to use the vaccines. Does the vaccination of your particular flock of just a few birds influence that? Probably not but maybe,. And we KNOW the more people using them the worse the disease is likely to get world-wide.

So in deciding whether or not you, in particular, should vaccinate you should probably ask yourself;

What are my goals for chicken keeping?
Am I going to be distributing birds to people who need to know if I have Mareks in my flock?
Am I willing to risk my chickens dying to know if they get sick from Mareks?
Do I think my use of the vaccine will influence the world for better or worse? Or does it matter at all because I'm just one little flock?

And then based on those answers and armed with the knowledge that the vaccine keeps birds alive but doesn't stop the spread of the disease itself you can make an informed choice.
Are you keeping a few pet birds with good bio security? Vaccinate.
Are you keeping a breeding flock that's important to KNOW is Mareks free? Don't vaccinate.
Something inbetween? Look at your factors and decide for yourself.