Vaccinate or Not

[FortCluck]

Thank you for reminding one and all of the original topic. Vaccines are always a touchy subject with some. I knew eventually we'd get a vaccine vs anti-vaxxer debate.

I wanted to spice stuff up

 

[Kiki]

My initial flock of hens was Mareks positive, I lost over 50% of my birds. I added vaccinated pullets in June 2019, quarantined them for 60 days, kept them separate for an additional 30 days while being able to free range for a few hours a day with the existing flock. It's too early to tell however they are currently happy and healthy, I'm hopeful this method will result in a better survival rate. We did end up with a Rooster from the June batch so breeding for resistance may also be in our future rather than vaccine however not sure I am ready for that!

I am glad to hear your flock is doing well now.

 

[Canuck88]

I have just received confirmation from our lab that my flock is positive for Mareks. I will post a separate thread later tonight or tomorrow so as not to derail this thread.

I am still waiting to hear from my vet who should have also received the report.

Going forward, I can say that I will only ever purchase chicks who are vaccinated for Mareks and if I decide to hatch out eggs I will buy the vaccine and vaccinate any chicks I add to my flock because I never want to deal with my chickens dying and suffering like this again.

 

[Northernchickens]

I don’t breed but I do unfortunately have experience with Mareks. I started my first ever flock this past summer and I lost one pullet in oct. Histo confirmed mareks, I called and spoke with the histologist she told me she frequently sees mareks in small backyard flocks but never in large hatcheries who vaccinate. If I had the choice to do it again I’d definitely get vaccinated chicks. I only lost the one bird out of my 12 but now I have to assume they are all carriers.

 

[cate1124]

Two vets who have seen my hens both believe strongly in getting the vaccine, though I think one was not aware of the leaky vaccine research (2017, linked early in this thread) that indicates vaccinated birds put unvaccinated birds at much greater risk. But here's how Gail Damerow ("Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens" and other books many of us trust) responded when I asked for her opinion: "Growing chicks separately from other chickens while they develop immunity is still my best recommendation. I certainly would not recommend combining vaccinated and unvaccinated chickens. Where that might be an issue, I'd rather not vaccinate any. I don't vaccinate. At one time I did. I never saw any significant differences between the flocks I vaccinated and those I didn't." She recommends rearing chicks away from the established flock for 5 months.

 

[cate1124]

I have been watching this thread with interest. I am also unsure about mixing vaccinated and non vaccinated chicks.

There is a large breeder/small hatchery a few hours from me, she claims on her website that the vaccine they use for Mareks is non shedding. I tried looking it up to confirm that but I am not so good with the science talk so wasn’t able to figure out where the manufacturer states that it is non shedding. I hope for her sake that it is non shedding, and she isn’t just stating that it is..

From the website (it’s long, I’ll try to highlight the key parts):


Vaccinations
It was not very long ago when outdoor flocks in Western Canada could live long and never get sick beyond the occasional cough in the winter. But serious diseases have become a problem in the last 50 years. The number of birds being kept has grown hugely, and flocks are closer together. Biosecurity is often poor, with people buying and selling birds that may be carrying a disease. And perhaps the worst culprit: people who are reluctant to cull or even quarantine sick birds. This situation is a bonanza for germs. Once a disease gets introduced it’s here to stay, and we will likely see more and more of it.

In our opinion, the best way to protect our birds from disease is to vaccinate them. There are excellent, non-shedding vaccines now that can be administered to day old chicks. We can’t protect them from everything, but the vaccine we have chosen for the hatchery for 2017 gives them protection from the 2 worst and most common diseases in this area: Marek’s Disease and Infectious Laryngotracheitis, ILT.

Let’s talk about Marek’s Disease. It is a highly contagious neoplastic disease caused by a herpes virus. The virus is spread in dander from feather follicles which can stay suspended in the air for days and travel many miles. After inhaling the dust, microscopic lesions are present after one to two weeks, and gross lesions are present after three to four weeks. Chicks may go lame or get hugely enlarged livers before maturity, although some birds live a few years with the infection. Infected birds can be carriers and shedders for life. Marek’s disease is the most common chicken disease in this area.

And ILT. It is an acute, highly contagious, herpes virus infection characterized by severe trouble breathing, coughing, a swollen head, weepy eyes and a drop in egg laying. After recovery, birds remain carriers for life and become a source of infection for susceptible birds. The latent virus can be reactivated every time the bird is stressed. ILT is a reportable disease in Canada and you may be required to cull all your poultry if your flock gets it.

The vaccine we use at TNHH is Vectormune LT. It is stored in liquid nitrogen, so there is no mercury in it. A single 0.2ml shot at the hatchery confers lifetime immunity to both Marek’s and ILT. The vaccinated birds cannot spread either disease to other birds.

Here are some reasons people give for not vaccinating, and our comments:

* We’re organic. - No problem, vaccines are approved by all the organic certifiers.

* Vaccination is stressful - Not as stressful as suffering with Marek’s or ILT

* We’re breeding for natural resistance - That would be a very advanced genetics project, which requires far bigger flocks than you could possibly have.

* We can’t because we’re going to use medicated feed - Medicated feed only affects the Cocci parasite, it has no effect on viruses.

* We don’t have those diseases here - You may not, but unless you have your flock perfectly isolated they will be exposed sooner or later.

* It’s not worth the cost - One healthy young hen is worth the cost of 100 vaccinations.

Like small pox, Marek’s and ILT could be wiped out if everyone vaccinated. I don’t expect that to happen in my lifetime, but I’m doing my part now!

Does anyone have thoughts to share on this?

I will also add that I am dealing with some illness in my flock for the second time since moving here, and will be taking some birds to the animal health lab tomorrow morning when they open (I will make a separate thread on that).

As far as biosecurity goes, I have been told by vets that in order to prevent disease you basically have to contain your birds indoors for their entire lives..

This assertion of a "non-shedding" Marek's vaccine contradicts everything I've read. If that were true, it seems every hatchery would offer it, and none of us would have to fret about endangering older unvaccinated birds by introducing vaccinated chicks.

 

[Canuck88]

This assertion of a "non-shedding" Marek's vaccine contradicts everything I've read. If that were true, it seems every hatchery would offer it, and none of us would have to fret about endangering older unvaccinated birds by introducing vaccinated chicks.

I agree, but wanted to share with the community here in case others knew of such a vaccine.

 

[NatJ]

fret about endangering older unvaccinated birds by introducing vaccinated chicks.

I'm puzzled here.

I thought the way it worked was this:

The chicks either have Mareks or they don't.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds and all birds have a chance of dying.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and the chicks are vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds (who might die) but the chicks have a higher chance of living.
--If the chicks do not have Mareks, it does not matter wether they are vaccinated or not, because all birds will be fine.

Am I mixed up here? I know it's been a lot of pages to read through, and I could have missed something.

Oh, I guess I missed one possibility:
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, they might look sick enough that you do not bring them home at all, thus preventing exposure of the existing flock.
(But I would assume even un-vaccinated chicks that have Mareks, probably have some time in which they are contagious but do not yet look sick, so I'm not sure it changes things very much.)

 

[ColoradoPip]

I started with 4 chicks and knew nothing about any of this (Mareks, leaky vaccines, etc.). Now that I'm expanding, and the hatchery asked to vaccinate or not, I needed to make a decision. Based on where my first chicks came from, I read they are not vaccinated, therefore I've decided to keep going not vaccinated.

Breeding for resistance is the best option but I'm not breeding (at least not yet) so we'll see how it goes!

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I'm puzzled here.

I thought the way it worked was this:

The chicks either have Mareks or they don't.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds and all birds have a chance of dying.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and the chicks are vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds (who might die) but the chicks have a higher chance of living.
--If the chicks do not have Mareks, it does not matter wether they are vaccinated or not, because all birds will be fine.

Am I mixed up here? I know it's been a lot of pages to read through, and I could have missed something.

Oh, I guess I missed one possibility:
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, they might look sick enough that you do not bring them home at all, thus preventing exposure of the existing flock.
(But I would assume even un-vaccinated chicks that have Mareks, probably have some time in which they are contagious but do not yet look sick, so I'm not sure it changes things very much.)

Yeah it's that last possibility that matters here. Or, alternatively, the same possibility but with a great quarantine system.

For example, if I bring chicks home that are unvaccinated and I quarantine them effectively until they are laying, I have a real chance of seeing Mareks develop before then. Not 100%, but a real chance. Quarantine is a good practice for ALL new animals. (I actually frequently do, do this since then they can integrate with my rooster more safely.)
If they are carrying Mareks and are vaccinated I never have that chance to see if they're actually sick or not, so it's always worrysome to bring home new vaccinated birds to unvaccinated birds.

Additionally, if the parent flock has Mareks and is unvaccinated, it may show. Chickens are unhealthy or dead.
If the parent stock has Mareks and is vaccinated they look healthy but it could still hurt my flock if I brought chicks home.

That's why people worry about mixing vacced/unvacced birds. It's because it's fine to mix if you know there's no Mareks. But how do you know there's no Mareks if they're vaccinated? If they're unvaccinated there's at least some chance to find out if they carry before they infect your whole flock.