Vaccine for coccidiosis? Pros Cons and Q &A

[thepick4uchicks]

I know this post was from a really long time ago, but I want to thank you for writing it. This is the most thorough explanation of what’s going on with coccidiosis that I have been able to find. Recently I got some coccidiosis vaccinated baby chicks which I didn’t know were vaccinated, and after one week for the first batch and two weeks for another batch, I started feeding the medicated feed. I did this because I lost two baby chicks out of the second batch, and I suspected coccidiosis. After talking to the feed store, it seems that it was probably something else, because a number of checks were lost out of that particular batch.

Once I knew that I had done something wrong by introducing medicated feed to vaccinated chicks, I was trying to figure out how long it took for the vaccine to kick in and provide some immunity so I can figure out how much damage I had done by rendering the vaccine useless (in other words, is it possible that they had developed immunity prior to me feeding them the medicated feed? And, if I stopped after only one week of the medicated feed, is it possible that maybe I hadn’t completely read her the vaccine useless?).

This doesn’t exactly answer that question, but it gives me a lot more information than I could find anywhere else Thank you so much.

Thank you from me too! That was the most extraordinary explanation of the entire coccidia process and how we should deal with the vaccination/vaccine and or medicated feed in new chicks than I have ever seen or read or have ever had explained to me too. I don’t know if people don’t know how to simply explain it or if they don’t have all the facts themselves either but you did a great job. I never knew exactly when to start and stop the medicated feed exactly either. It doesn’t say on most medicated feed bags and why the hell not is beyond me. I have looked and looked. They are so vacant of information it is unreal. Some at TSC will be Purina feed but won’t even have the brand name on them due to some contractual arrangement with TSC-!tractor supply co. Here in the states. Thank you so much. I am going to screen shot this to have as a saved reference.
Thank you so much. Ridgerunner.
Pam

 

[leah vanity]

The vaccine for Marek's is totally different from the vaccine for Cocci. Totally unrelated.

The Marek's vaccine is actually turkey Marek's, not chicken. It does not prevent Marek's, it prevents the formation of the lesions that cause the damage. Even with the vaccine the chickens can get chicken Marek's, they just will not be harmed by it. If you have had Marek's in your flock you do not have Marek's in your area, you still have it in your flock. Your chickens will infect any other chickens that they come into contact with. Not every chicken that has Marek's exhibits symptoms, even if they have not had the vaccination. I recommend you vaccinate any chicks you bring into your flock for Marek's.

There are seven different protazoa that can cause Cocci. Protazoa are not a virus. I don't know about the specific vaccine McMurray is using this year, but the one they used last year protected against three of the strains of protazoa, not all seven. If the chicks develop immunity against one strain of protazoa, they do not develop immunity against all seven strains.

The protazoa that causes Cocci lives and multiplies in the chicks intestines. The eggs are expelled with the chicks body wastes, called manure or poop. After a day or two in damp or wet chicken poop they develop so that when the chick eats them, they get reinfected. They need to go through this cycle about two weeks before the chick develops an immunity to that specific strain of Cocci. If one has it, they all have it. They eat each others poop. If you do something to kill off or greatly inhibit this cycle, they do not develop immunity. I imagine but do not know for certain that the vaccination introduces weakened protazoa. Maybe they are easily killed off or don't multiply well enough if you feed medicated feed. The cynic in me says that they are just covering all their bases by saying do not feed medicated feed in the first two weeks, but since they recommend it, I would certainly not do it. That is not my specialty and I am going to say follow their instructiosn. They know more than I do about it.

Most medicated feed does not contain antibiotics. You really need to look at the active ingredients to know what is in there. Odds are it is Amprolium or some such product. (It can be something different so do not assume that it is Amprolium!) Amprolium does not kill the protazoa that causes cocci. It inhibits (does not stop but slows down) their use of a certain vitamin needed for them to reproduce. It allows some of the protazoa to reproduce, but not to reproduce totally out of control. The damage to the chick does not occur from a small amount of protazoa in their intestines. The damage comes when the number of protazoa gets too large. The protazoa numbers get huge when the brooder, coop, or run gets wet and the poop is concentrated. That's why if you keep the brooder pretty clean and dry, cocci is usually (Not always but usually. Certain strains of cocci are very strong.) not a problem. But they need a small amount of their poop, slightly damp not soaking wet, so they can develop the immunity.

This is not as complicated as I probably made it sound. Hopefully this will help you make you decision how to proceed. Good luck!!!

So question is...would you get your chicks vaccinated then? I'm waiting to purchase mine because I've been trying to do as much research as possible! First timer here and I'm purchasing 6 to start...

 

[Ridgerunner]

So question is...would you get your chicks vaccinated then? I'm waiting to purchase mine because I've been trying to do as much research as possible! First timer here and I'm purchasing 6 to start...

That post is from a long time ago. I've learned a few things since then and have developed my method to deal with Coccidiosis. I've written this which is now my standard copy and paste. It's about medicated feed instead of vaccinations but it might help you with your research. Some of the principles are the same.

I do not vaccinate either broody raised or brooder raised chicks. I hatch almost all of my chicks, either in an incubator or with a broody hen. They don't come from a hatchery so I have a way to deal with Coccidiodis that does not involve vaccination.

My broody hens have places to take the chicks that aren't that wet even in wet weather but the chicks are exposed to the protozoa so they develop immunity without getting sick. I keep my brooder extremely dry (the floor is 1/2" hardware cloth so it is really dry) and I keep the water fresh so the number of protozoa don't get high enough to cause a problem. I feed dirt from the run to them every three days or so to expose them to whatever strain might be in the dirt to start with so they can develop immunity. By the time mine hit the ground they have immunity.

I don't see anything wrong with vaccinating for Cocci. It will not hurt them and will not introduce any strains of Cocci to your flock. It's just another way of dealing with Cocci. Anyway, here's how I write that up now for medicated feed


First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there, mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

 

[leah vanity]

That post is from a long time ago. I've learned a few things since then and have developed my method to deal with Coccidiosis. I've written this which is now my standard copy and paste. It's about medicated feed instead of vaccinations but it might help you with your research. Some of the principles are the same.

I do not vaccinate either broody raised or brooder raised chicks. I hatch almost all of my chicks, either in an incubator or with a broody hen. They don't come from a hatchery so I have a way to deal with Coccidiodis that does not involve vaccination.

My broody hens have places to take the chicks that aren't that wet even in wet weather but the chicks are exposed to the protozoa so they develop immunity without getting sick. I keep my brooder extremely dry (the floor is 1/2" hardware cloth so it is really dry) and I keep the water fresh so the number of protozoa don't get high enough to cause a problem. I feed dirt from the run to them every three days or so to expose them to whatever strain might be in the dirt to start with so they can develop immunity. By the time mine hit the ground they have immunity.

I don't see anything wrong with vaccinating for Cocci. It will not hurt them and will not introduce any strains of Cocci to your flock. It's just another way of dealing with Cocci. Anyway, here's how I write that up now for medicated feed


First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there, mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

Thank you! I appreciate it. Totally makes sense. Do you know where I can find info on what ingredients (if any) transfer through to eggs in layers from the vaccine or medicated feed? Want to make sure my hens as well as my family are safe.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Thank you! I appreciate it. Totally makes sense. Do you know where I can find info on what ingredients (if any) transfer through to eggs in layers from the vaccine or medicated feed? Want to make sure my hens as well as my family are safe.

From the vaccine I haven't a clue, but since they get the vaccine as baby chicks and don't lay eggs for months afterwards I'd think the chance of anything being passed down in the eggs is astronomically small. Virtually nonexistant.

For the medicated feed I'd suggest contacting the manufacturer of the feed. I'd be interested in how they respond. I would not expect much real information, maybe a comment that the USDA says there is no withdrawal period for eggs or meat from chickens fed medicated feed as long as that medicine is Amprolium. If the medicine is something else there likely is a withdrawal period.