Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[igorsMistress]

I'm fairly new here, but in time, perhaps, folk will learn that I generally have good support for the statements I make. And this is no exception. I live among Buddhists, and have lived among them in multiple parts of the world. Buddhist restaurants in Taiwan, for example, serve a completely vegan menu. Buddhists in much of Southeast Asia will eat meat, as you say, excusing themselves in saying that the Chinese butcher already killed it--might as well eat it! Even the monks will eat meat in this part of the world because a Buddhist precept states that, since all desire is bad, and to have a favorite food or food preference would be to have desire, they must eat whatever is set before them with neither enjoyment nor distaste. Since the mother knows her monk-son likes to eat chicken, she places it in his bowl during his morning alms rounds. He must eat it! Technically, though, this is not true Buddhism, and is sometimes called "folk Buddhism." A true Buddhist should be vegetarian. Siddhartha Gautama ("Buddha") did not start the Buddhist religion. It was started by his followers after he died. He himself did eat meat, as you have said, and he died several days after eating infected pork.

My Buddhist relatives will fan their hand or blow at the mosquito that is on their arm, to chase it away without killing it. I have witnessed this. Clapping at a mosquito may draw eyes around here. I am not Buddhist, and will happily kill them. My relatives are presumably glad that I did so!

I didn't understand the "stole" statement to be actual theft, but used euphemistically. I could be wrong, in this, but the description was certainly not so clear as to remain unambiguous. As for the "flock" rationale, of chickens being social creatures and no one should keep just one, as it would be lonely in isolation, what happens if an owner loses all but one to, say, a dog attack? Should the owner suddenly be reported for having only one? (Reminds me of the Uno game, where, if but one card remains, one must self-declare the fact to avoid being penalized by the other players.)

I'm glad you don't have their address. Government overreach, nosy neighbors, and a "report everything" attitude add up to situations like that encountered and remarked upon HERE.

No, I am certainly not playing devil's advocate. Read the above responses to IgorsMistress to learn more.

I am a practicing Buddhist. If Buddha ate meat then I see no reason that I can’t. Nothing says a true Buddhist SHOULD be vegetarian. Plants live and die, but somehow they are exempt because they don’t have a face.

I have a serious problem with not killing a mosquito because it might be a dead Aunt, but what about all my cousins and friends I just killed walking to town? Or the ancestors I killed tilling my fields to plant live crops that I’m going to kill to eat? We go around killing everything, but somehow animals and bugs we can see are different. That’s ridiculous not what was behind the lesson.

I would tend to take care of things like that myself rather than report it, but these days I’d get in trouble for it. Your argument about the situation for the bird makes me sad, I worry for your animals and children. You’re not worth wasting my time, so have a nice life.

 

[Egg Blues]

sorry but dairy, eggs etc are not all that healthy to the human body. Sure they contain some important nutrients, but they can be replaced by plant based alternatives which are generally more natural and more easily digested.
If you really want to try and accuse vegan diets of all this, you should actually reply to @Amfh
instead of claiming falsehoods and half truths before running away.

I'm not here for debate, which is why I deliberately avoid certain points. It is neither my purpose nor my duty to correct every error. If people wish to ask serious questions, and to discuss things reasonably, with humility/teachableness, I am more than happy to continue sharing. In that spirit, let me submit that there are two major limitations of a vegan diet, from my perspective.

1. Vitamin B12 (cobalamin)
2. Sulfur

VITAMIN B12

In the first case, many vegans are aware that there is no plant-based source whatsoever, and they take supplements. But they are often naive as to the efficacy of the supplementation program, and to the pathway for B12 absorption into the body. As their B12 levels drop, their homocysteine levels rise, and a little research will help you understand the important relationship between these two and the dangers of high homocysteine. In many cases, a lab test that checks for B12 levels may indicate that a person is on the low side of "normal," and therefore not to worry. But if a homocysteine test were done simultaneously, and came out showing elevated levels, this would reverse the diagnosis--the B12 requirement would be demonstrably higher.

One poster here posited that if 98% of X amount of cyanocobalamin is lost within the first 24 hours, this is no problem because the dosage may be 50 times higher than necessary to compensate. But this shows ignorance of several facts. First of all, the body naturally utilizes methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, not cyanocobalamin, so it requires conversion in the liver where the cyanide molecule is detached from the cobalamin (yes, the same cyanide that is a poison, but these are such minuscule quantities that there is no worry here). Secondly, the 98% figure well established by the studies applies only to the first 24 hours. Nothing in those studies would reassure us that additional amounts of the cyanocobalamin would not be lost in the hours beyond. Thirdly, the dosage for oral supplements is much higher than the daily RDA for a very important reason which has nothing to do with the potential loss of most of it once it enters the body--the dosage is high in order to maximize the uptake via intrinsic factor (IF).

Vitamin B12 is the largest-molecule vitamin in our body. It is too large to pass through the intestinal wall in the manner of other nutrients, and can only be absorbed via the help of intrinsic factor, an enzyme of the stomach produced in limited quantities. Intrinsic factor essentially accepts a cobalamin molecule and injects it through the lining of the intestine, making a hole big enough for the B12 to pass through, after which the hole must be closed again to prevent the admittance of bacteria. If someone has insufficient levels of intrinsic factor, no amount of B12 consumption will avail of getting any into the bloodstream. So, intrinsic factor is the bottleneck. (And even meat-eaters can become B12 deficient, especially as they age, due to low levels of intrinsic factor.) Taking a horse pill of B12 would still only get a maximum of perhaps 20 mcg of B12 into the body via that single dose--and to then lose 98% of it....well, you do the math. B12 which is injected intramuscularly (IM) does not suffer the same limitation with intrinsic factor, but there are other reasons why cyanocobalamin is still ineffective. Hydroxocobalamin is slightly better, but the best by far is methylcobalamin, or (if you can obtain such) adenosylcobalamin.

SULFUR

In the case of sulfur, proteins are generally higher in this element. A vegan diet is generally lower in protein, which is not a problem for most things, but may be problematic on account of the reduced sulfur intake. Sulfur is important for the elimination of toxins. For example, the water one drinks or the rice one eats may contain some arsenic. While arsenic is water soluble and can be eliminated from the body, chronic exposure can cause toxicity levels to build. Sulfur can help facilitate the elimination of toxins such as arsenic, lead, cadmium, bismuth, etc.

Among the common foods available to a vegan, the one with the highest sulfur content is garlic. When we compare the amount of sulfur from one ounce of garlic with that of one ounce of egg, we find that the egg has eight times as much of this nutrient. And who sits down to eat a whole bowl or plate of garlic?

A practicing vegan who wishes to ensure that the body's toxicity levels remain more manageable might consider periodic chelation therapy to get ahead of the toxins in lieu of a good source of sulfur, one of nature's own chelators.

 

[Shadrach]

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks. She's now 2 years old and poor girl doesn't look healthy at all. She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs. She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation. She is fed 3 small cat bowls of mixed greens per day, and when she was still laying that would also include one boiled egg with shell.

Her feathers are dull and scrappy, she's bony and underweight, still has down feathers on her tail, has an almost yellow pallored face, and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying. Citing "speciesism", the owner will not see a vet.

The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens, but I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed. She lives indoors so she gets no forage. Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)? Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens? And if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

Back on topic...

While I understand your concern for this hen one needs to bear in mind that millions of hens are fed on what is essentially a Vegan diet. The vast majority of commercial feed is grain based with addatives that provide the necessary chemicals to support life and in many cases maximum egg production.
Should hens be fed such a diet and what impact it may have on their long term health is an interesting question. I am not in favour of it because chickens are omnivores by nature, much like humans.

As to your question

Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens?

It would seem so. I suspect many chickens one can read about here on BYC are fed entirely on a vegan diet, particulary if they are confined to a coop and run.
While in theory most have some access to natural ground the forage content of most runs is depeleted within weeks but the chickens still live.
In many commercial keeping circumstances there is zero opportunity for a chicken to access natural ground let alone supplement their diet through forage.
It is hard to guess what if any the long term health implications may be for chickens kept in such conditions based on diet alone but they live.

In the case you mention in your post it seems to me that the main concern is whether or not the diet is balanced, the vegan debate that has boken out on the thread isn't really relevant to your post.
I don't know how much time you've had to observe this chicken, her owner, and exactly what this hen gets to eat over the longer term. It can be very easy to come away with half the story if the obsevation period is short.

Finally, if you are convinced this hen is receiving an inadequate diet and you have access to this hen then a possible solution is to discretely supply the occasional bit of fish, or other foodstuffs to complement the vegetables.

Doing something about a situation one finds unacceptable is almost always more productive and rewarding than gathering internet opinions as you may be able to see from the state of this thread.
Good luck.

 

[Chicken poppy]

No. No is all i have to say. Their better off simply killing the poor thing. Thats not even a life to live.

Not sure what that person thinks “rescuing” means.

Im a vegan, i have been my entire life, but i would never feed my chickens that diet. If you ask me, thats downright cruel.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Some animals can be put on plant based diets safely, some, but to do it safely would cost *a lot* of money and it's a hugely debated topic. Which is why personally I disagree with some animals being bred for pets.
But just on one point, hamsters actually aren't vegan, they're omnivores and need insects in their diet, lol

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Back on topic...

While I understand your concern for this hen one needs to bear in mind that millions of hens are fed on what is essentially a Vegan diet. The vast majority of commercial feed is grain based with addatives that provide the necessary chemicals to support life and in many cases maximum egg production.
Should hens be fed such a diet and what impact it may have on their long term health is an interesting question. I am not in favour of it because chickens are omnivores by nature, much like humans.

As to your question

It would seem so. I suspect many chickens one can read about here on BYC are fed entirely on a vegan diet, particulary if they are confined to a coop and run.
While in theory most have some access to natural ground the forage content of most runs is depeleted within weeks but the chickens still live.
In many commercial keeping circumstances there is zero opportunity for a chicken to access natural ground let alone supplement their diet through forage.
It is hard to guess what if any the long term health implications may be for chickens kept in such conditions based on diet alone but they live.

In the case you mention in your post it seems to me that the main concern is whether or not the diet is balanced, the vegan debate that has boken out on the thread isn't really relevant to your post.
I don't know how much time you've had to observe this chicken, her owner, and exactly what this hen gets to eat over the longer term. It can be very easy to come away with half the story if the obsevation period is short.

Finally, if you are convinced this hen is receiving an inadequate diet and you have access to this hen then a possible solution is to discretely supply the occasional bit of fish, or other foodstuffs to complement the vegetables.

Doing something about a situation one finds unacceptable is almost always more productive and rewarding than gathering internet opinions as you may be able to see from the state of this thread.
Good luck.

I'm going to quibble here. A large number of birds are fed an Amino-acid supplimented, vitamin- and mineral- corrected vegetable-based diet. That's a long stretch from "vegan".

Given the feed threads on BYC as data points, there is no reason to beleive that the typical owner of chickens is qualified to prepare a complete, balanced diet for their birds on their own. Nor does the (admittedly much smaller) subset of vegans appear any more uniquely qualified in matters of chicken nutrition.

Tieing that back to the original post, there is no reason not to believe (and plenty of reason to assume) that the possessor of the bird being fed a vegan diet (by whatever vegan definition they prefer to use) is providing their bird a less than optimal, very likely nutritionally deficient diet. While it is remotely possible that they are home-brewing a vegan diet for the bird appropriately supplimented in ways which make it more comparable to a commercially complete feed, its also remotely possible I'll be struck be a meteor today (or close enough as to make no difference). Those possibilities seem so remote as to not be worth wasting type on "what ifs".

What to do about it is a matter of morality and ethics - and like matters of personal faith, I'm not really interested in seeing it argued over here - BYC isn't the place to inflict ones morality on others.

Legal question, what will the law/government do? More interesting to me, certainly something where we have some shared facts from which to base opinions, but animal welfare legislation is notoriously vague, subject to broad interpretation, selective enforcement, and the personal belief and education of the inspector in question - whom none of us know.

Maybe we should leave it at that and move on, having exhausted much of what we, as anonymous people on the internet, can offer in this situation.

 

[Chicken poppy]

Some animals can be put on plant based diets safely, some, but to do it safely would cost *a lot* of money and it's a hugely debated topic. Which is why personally I disagree with some animals being bred for pets.
But just on one point, hamsters actually aren't vegan, they're omnivores and need insects in their diet, lolll

I had said that in my last post, but changed it.
Yes, your correct. They are omnivores but thrive much more on a vegan diet if being compared to a animal like chickens.

 

[Shadrach]

I'm going to quibble here. A large number of birds are fed an Amino-acid supplimented, vitamin- and mineral- corrected vegetable-based diet. That's a long stretch from "vegan".

Given the feed threads on BYC as data points, there is no reason to beleive that the typical owner of chickens is qualified to prepare a complete, balanced diet for their birds on their own. Nor does the (admittedly much smaller) subset of vegans appear any more uniquely qualified in matters of chicken nutrition.

Tieing that back to the original post, there is no reason to believe (and plenty of reason to assume) that the possessor of the bird being fed a vegan diet (by whatever vegan definition they prefer to use) is providing their bird a less than optimal, likely nutritionally deficient diet. While it is remotely possible that they are home-brewing a vegan diet for the bird appropriately supplimented in ways which make it more comparable to a commercially complete feed, its also remotely possible I'll be struck be a meteor today (or close enough as to make no difference). Those possibilities seem so remote as to not be worth wasting type on "what ifs".

What to do about it is a matter of morality and ethics - and like matters of personal faith, I'm not really interested in seeing it argued over here - BYC isn't the place to inflict ones morality on others.

Legal question, what will the law/government do? More interesting to me, certainly something where we have some shared facts from which to base opinions, but animal welfare legislation is notoriously vague, subject to broad interpretation, selective enforcement, and the personal belief and education of the inspector in question - whom none of us know.

Maybe we should leave it at that and move on, having exhausted much of what we, as anonymous people on the internet, can offer in this situation.

The vast majority of commercial feed is grain based with addatives that provide the necessary chemicals to support life and in many cases maximum egg production.

There is little or no point in being too pedantic, or detailed on a general thread such as this imo. Few understand and fewer are interested.

 

[Chicken poppy]

There is little or no point in being too pedantic, or detailed on a general thread such as this imo. Few understand and fewer are interested.

Agreed.

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

While all this vegan morality debate has been fun, we still have no clue if the owner of the chicken is actually vegan and foisting her diet on animals (maybe I missed it?) or honestly just believes the chicken will thrive on a vegan diet. But even if we all agree chickens were not born to be vegan or to live indoors I really don't see any options for OP to help the chicken out. If some authority figure were to come investigate, would the chicken go to a better home? Maybe it lives indoors because chickens aren't allowed where this person lives? I have questions