Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[igorsMistress]

I mean if you kept a chicken in an enclosed facility like say a large chicken barn, and you fed it Purina Layena crumbles for its whole adult life, the only thing not vegan about it is the oyster shell. And whatever bugs the chicken would stumble across.

One could argue that most chickens in the whole country are probably vegetarian, or close to it. Am I wrong?

I'm not even touching on this specific scenario, nor promoting anything. Just a label reader.

I see where you’re coming from. Plant proteins are cheap, that’s why they’re used. The thing is, chickens naturally chase bugs, eat mice and frogs, lizards, even baby birds that happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Feed is meant to provide the basic needs for the birds to live, but still be cheap enough for the consumer so the manufacturer can make a profit.

A lot of research is being done around using bugs in feed, particularly BSFL. The reason is that the grubs can and will eat anything that’s decaying whether it’s meat or produce, which can help with waste management, plus they are nutritionally better for birds than plant proteins and more like what they would eat in the wild.

 

[Egg Blues]

Liberties do not include abusing animals.

No? And who gets to define what constitutes abuse? This animal is getting fed, and for as much as we know, pampered in other ways. If animals should never be "abused," what about scientists who use laboratory animals to learn how to treat people? Should the people themselves be the "guinea pigs" instead?

Being misguided or misinformed should not constitute a cause for reporting someone as an abuser. This hen's owner may face judgment in another form--when the beloved hen perishes early.

 

[Brooks_]

No? And who gets to define what constitutes abuse? This animal is getting fed, and for as much as we know, pampered in other ways. If animals should never be "abused," what about scientists who use laboratory animals to learn how to treat people? Should the people themselves be the "guinea pigs" instead?

Being misguided or misinformed should not constitute a cause for reporting someone as an abuser.

I'm sure authorities in all locations have a guide book defining proper nutrition for common animals. I would doubt leafy greens would satisfy requirements for chickens. But I guess some people are just misguided for using a switch on children. No need to call CPS.

 

[BelovedBirds]

No? And who gets to define what constitutes abuse? This animal is getting fed, and for as much as we know, pampered in other ways. If animals should never be "abused," what about scientists who use laboratory animals to learn how to treat people? Should the people themselves be the "guinea pigs" instead?

Being misguided or misinformed should not constitute a cause for reporting someone as an abuser. This hen's owner may face judgment in another form--when the beloved hen perishes early.

we're talking about neglect here, and failing to meet the needs of the hen is neglect. Diet, housing, companionship and the ability to display natural behaviours are super important when factoring in what is neglect.
The Animal Welfare Act of 2006 includes all of the above, and can help us determine on multiple levels that the hen is neglected.
1. insufficient diet
2. a social animal left isolated
3. the hen being cooped up indoors and restricted to a cage means she cannot behave naturally (this one is debatable but I believe applies)

Trying to say that we can't judge this situation because "who can define neglect?" is ridiculous. Or at least that's what it sounds like you're saying.

And testing on animals absolutely is abuse, whether you support it or not, no one can try and say it's humane. Comparing one form of neglect to a "lesser" form of neglect doesn't make either okay.

 

[Shadrach]

we're talking about neglect here, and failing to meet the needs of the hen is neglect. Diet, housing, companionship and the ability to display natural behaviours are super important when factoring in what is neglect.
The Animal Welfare Act of 2006 includes all of the above, and can help us determine on multiple levels that the hen is neglected.
1. insufficient diet
2. a social animal left isolated
3. the hen being cooped up indoors and restricted to a cage means she cannot behave naturally (this one is debatable but I believe applies)

Trying to say that we can't judge this situation because "who can define neglect?" is ridiculous. Or at least that's what it sounds like you're saying.

And testing on animals absolutely is abuse, whether you support it or not, no one can try and say it's humane. Comparing one form of neglect to a "lesser" form of neglect doesn't make either okay.

I see you are in England.
Here is the Animal Welfare Act.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents
Looks okay doesn't it?
Try and get any of it enforced for a chicken.
I've met a couple of the "inspectors". The pair I met couldn't tell a chicken from a duck and wouldn't know enough about a chicken should they recognise it to know if it was at deaths door, or about to do the happy dance.

 

[Egg Blues]

we're talking about neglect here, and failing to meet the needs of the hen is neglect. Diet, housing, companionship and the ability to display natural behaviours are super important when factoring in what is neglect.
The Animal Welfare Act of 2006 includes all of the above, and can help us determine on multiple levels that the hen is neglected.
1. insufficient diet
2. a social animal left isolated
3. the hen being cooped up indoors and restricted to a cage means she cannot behave naturally (this one is debatable but I believe applies)

Trying to say that we can't judge this situation because "who can define neglect?" is ridiculous. Or at least that's what it sounds like you're saying.

And testing on animals absolutely is abuse, whether you support it or not, no one can try and say it's humane. Comparing one form of neglect to a "lesser" form of neglect doesn't make either okay.

Shall I expect to see a well-fed mice population in your home, and no such thing as a mouse trap--which would obviously be abusive? Buddhists won't even kill a mosquito because it could be their reincarnated relative. Karma and all. Should our laws require that everyone adhere to the standards set by one religion or another?

I have standards--should everyone be required to follow my personal standards? Should my own moral tastes become the rule for everyone else to follow?

Education, not force, is the best guiding principle in cases like these. We should be willing to kindly, and not coercively, educate people--and then remember that they have as much freedom of choice as we have. Because others do not give their dogs a bath every day as we do, we should not sit in judgment over them and seek to enact legislation to force them to comply to our standards.

 

[igorsMistress]

Shall I expect to see a well-fed mice population in your home, and no such thing as a mouse trap--which would obviously be abusive? Buddhists won't even kill a mosquito because it could be their reincarnated relative. Karma and all. Should our laws require that everyone adhere to the standards set by one religion or another?

I have standards--should everyone be required to follow my personal standards? Should my own moral tastes become the rule for everyone else to follow?

Education, not force, is the best guiding principle in cases like these. We should be willing to kindly, and not coercively, educate people--and then remember that they have as much freedom of choice as we have. Because others do not give their dogs a bath every day as we do, we should not sit in judgment over them and seek to enact legislation to force them to comply to our standards.

Religion doesn’t belong here, especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about. First, the intent behind killing something is what counts, so you’re wrong. Second, many Buddhists will eat meat as long as they didn’t kill it. Buddha did so. Finally, the fact is the animal is not being provided it’s basic needs. Chickens flock for a reason. They hunt bugs and small rodents for a reason. It would have been out of its misery if the thieves had just left it alone. So theft and animal abuse, two checks against them, wish I had their address so I could report them myself.

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

Shall I expect to see a well-fed mice population in your home, and no such thing as a mouse trap--which would obviously be abusive? Buddhists won't even kill a mosquito because it could be their reincarnated relative. Karma and all. Should our laws require that everyone adhere to the standards set by one religion or another?

I have standards--should everyone be required to follow my personal standards? Should my own moral tastes become the rule for everyone else to follow?

Education, not force, is the best guiding principle in cases like these. We should be willing to kindly, and not coercively, educate people--and then remember that they have as much freedom of choice as we have. Because others do not give their dogs a bath every day as we do, we should not sit in judgment over them and seek to enact legislation to force them to comply to our standards.

We aren't talking about religious norms. That's a straw man argument. We're talking about living in a society with domesticated animals and the laws that apply to keeping them. We are also talking about the animal's health. If my dog is so matted that it affects the dog's health or so malnourished the neighbors notice then in this society I will probably be reported. Some societies left weak newborns out to freeze to death. But we're not talking about those societies. I appreciate that you are playing devil's advocate and I welcome the discussion but I think its taken a turn off-topic.
In all practicality, if this person were reported it might not result in any action being taken, regardless of what Buddha or Ahura Mazda would think of that.

 

[cassie]

Chickens are not vegans or even vegetarians.

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks. She's now 2 years old and poor girl doesn't look healthy at all. She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs. She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation. She is fed 3 small cat bowls of mixed greens per day, and when she was still laying that would also include one boiled egg with shell.

Her feathers are dull and scrappy, she's bony and underweight, still has down feathers on her tail, has an almost yellow pallored face, and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying. Citing "speciesism", the owner will not see a vet.

The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens, but I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed. She lives indoors so she gets no forage. Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)? Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens? And if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

I am not at all sure you can convince this person of anything. As my grandmother told me, you cannot argue with an idiot. Just curious. Why do you think the chicken is Cornish X and Leghorn? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If someone wants to be a vegan fine, but don't pawn off that diet on other critters. To those that go on how healthful and natural a vegan diet is, it may be of interest of them to know that not a single primate in the wild subsists on a purely vegan diet. Not one. Chimpanzees even hunt and kill other animals for food.

 

[cassie]

So this acquaintance "rescued" a chicken from slaughter only to forcefully ensure it spends the rest of it's days malnourished with an improper diet, sick, indoors when they should be outside and alone with no flock mates? Sounds like the chicken would have had a better go of things staying on the slaughter truck.

Edit: I also wanted to add that for the possible argument regarding some old recipes that do not have animal protein, those chickens still were not fed a solely vegan diet. They would spend their entire day foraging for bugs and more often than not at the end of the day the chickens along with other farm animals would get fed table scraps.

Chickens were also often fed skim milk. Back in the day most small farmers had a few cows. They separated the milk and sold the cream. The skim was fed to pigs, chickens, and the kids.