Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[LizGio]

In some ways, this might seem right. But I believe people should have certain liberties, including with their children and their animals, even if they might be deemed by others to be entirely deluded. In this case, there is no chance that the inspector would be able to cure the root cause of the issue, the mindset of the person(s) involved, regardless of the action taken. The person is far more valuable than the animal, and it is therefore the hen's owner who gets the lion's share of my sympathies in this case. I do pity the hen...but the hen's owner! Alas, I fear the path to improvement is very difficult and hard to find.

Liberties do not include abusing animals. If proper nutrition is being withheld that is neglect and not tolerable. I do understand your point. That person will keep doing whatever they want to do and nothing is going to change without getting to the root of the problem- the owner. But I do everything in my power to protect the animals. The same way I would report an abusive parent or co-worker. It might not help right away but it doesn't hurt to say something.

 

[Egg Blues]

Forgive me if I seem out of line, but I didn't make this post for people to put on their tinfoil hats and start making up stories about how vegans have brain damage and it's the most horrible diet ever. I myself am not a vegan but let's not be ridiculous here.

It isn't ridiculous. Biologists can tell you that nerve tissue is virtually the same in all animals, and its function requires the same chemistry. Vitamin B12 is important to nerve function, and is involved in the metabolic pathways of the nerve signal transmission. That said, hens need B12 just as humans do. And without it, problems are sure to develop, which might range from sensory issues to muscular issues or to anything else involving nerve function. B12 is produced by bacteria. Even animals do not produce it. Cows, for example, get B12 from the bacteria which breaks down the beta-chain cellulose of the grass they eat. Essentially, cows get their nutrition from the bacteria which they fed by the well-chewed grass (cud). Termites, similarly, cannot digest wood without the help of bacteria in their gut.

A hen in the wild would be sure to gobble up the termite that crossed her path. And she'd get protein, B12, and other nutrients from it.

The hen needs proper nutrition. A vegan diet will not provide it. Therefore, the hen in question is not on a diet that will properly sustain her.

Now...this is not a "made up story" either regarding brain damage from B12 deficiency. The following two quotes are from the National Institute of Health (NIH) website (emphases mine).

Most observational studies have found correlations between low serum vitamin B12 concentrations alone or in combination with high folate concentrations and poor cognitive function [82-87]. For example, an analysis of cross-sectional 2011–2014 NHANES data on 2,420 adults aged 60 years or older found that low vitamin B12 (MMA greater than 0.27 micromol/L or serum vitamin B12 less than 203 pg/mL [150 pmol/L]) combined with high folic acid—unmetabolized serum folic acid greater than 0.44 mcg/L (1 nmol/L) or serum total folate higher than 32.7 mcg/L (74.1 nmol/L)—was associated an almost two to three times higher risk of cognitive impairment [82]. [LINK]

Large amounts of folate can correct the megaloblastic anemia, but not the neurological damage, that can result from vitamin B12 deficiency. Some experts have therefore been concerned that high intakes of folate supplements might “mask” vitamin B12 deficiency until its neurological consequences become irreversible. Questions about this possibility still remain, but the focus of concern has shifted to the potential for large amounts of folate to precipitate or exacerbate the anemia and cognitive symptoms associated with vitamin B12 deficiency [2,84,147-152]. [LINK]

Perhaps we aren't concerned about the cognitive function of the hen, nor its IQ. But B12 is important to far more than this, and its health is adversely affected by the poor diet it is receiving.

EDIT: Attempted to correct broken link in second quote.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Yeah, maybe I misspoke somewhere but I never meant to imply it's somehow unhealthy that she's being fed her own eggs. But that the owner says it's a necessary behavior, and one egg a day was her only source of nutrition besides mixed leafy greens. Now she just gets the greens.

yeah I know dont worry! I agree it isnt good enough for her

 

[BelovedBirds]

I'm mature enough to know my flaws. and old enough to know I'm not changing. Therefore, a recommendation, which I've made publicly, many times:

Think of me as the curmudgeonly old grandpa figure. Occasionally useful, sometimes entertaining, BEST IN SMALL QUANTITIES.

or roll your eyes and put me on Ignore.

I'm not trying to win a contest of "likes", and I've certainly been wrong plenty of times.

Appreciate when somone shares sources and corrects me, so I cease to make those mistakes. Merely trying to convey useful information, with no portion of my very limited time devoted to guessing how two or ten or one hundred anonymous posters spread all over the world might interpret my text. Its not personal.

Take my posts as you find them (and perhaps with a grain of salt), or leave them - as you prefer.

fair enough! I'm not meaning to sound overly critical, as I said I do agree with your points

 

[Amfh]

The hen's owner reveals a degree of imbalance in judgment that can nearly be predictive of certain things, e.g. how long he/she has been vegan (I might estimate at least 7 years). The greatest tragedy in this situation is not that of the hen--it is that the owner is becoming brain-damaged as a result of his/her vegan diet and consequent deficiency of vitamin B12. The longer one has been vegan, the more fanatical his or her views become. It will be nearly impossible, at this stage of the mental impairment, to persuade this individual otherwise.

Your assertion here is that veganism necessitates brain damage. This is remarkably arrogant, especially given that even you later admit that it works perfectly fine for some people, but more importantly, the later comments on which your argument relies are... something less than robust.

If you ARE on a vegan diet, you need to know that cyanocobalamin, the most common form of B12 in supplements and as a food additive, is virtually useless. Studies have shown that 98% of this exits the body within 24 hours, whether it was taken orally or via injection (the kidneys take it out). If you are a vegan, you need to know about methylcobalamin--it is more expensive and less commonly available, but well worth it. Vegans should also be aware that nutritional/food yeast does not naturally contain B12, and it will only have it if the producer added it (probably as cyanocobalamin).

98% exiting so soon is a very alarming number to quote, and does indeed make it sound useless, but you've left out a pretty key detail. The average adult human requires somewhere in the range of 1-2μg a day. If you're supplementing to restore deficiency or as general upkeep, there's nothing wrong with - and indeed, what is done is - taking 50 times as much to compensate. that's still mere milligram(s) of the stuff, which is possible to manufacture very cheaply, and if you look at supplements, that's indeed what is done.

There is no purely vegan source of vitamin B12--this vitamin comes only from animal products.

I don't even need to say much to counter this, as you all but blatantly contradict yourself in your most recent post:

Cows, for example, get B12 from the bacteria which breaks down the beta-chain cellulose of the grass they eat. Essentially, cows get their nutrition from the bacteria which they fed by the well-chewed grass (cud).

Where you outline the fact that bacteria is the source of B12. Yes, framed here as a product innate to an animal, but the current human method of producing B12 is by cultivating bacteria. How is this not vegan? Why would you say this? It's simply and demonstrably wrong. As you say yourself, every living thing gets its b12 from bacteria, not just from production in the gut, but from dirty food water, and living environments. Obviously we shouldn't be consuming contaminated produce, which is why hygienic bacterial cultivation is necessary.

Another thing to note is that not even farm animals bred for eating get enough, due to their unnatural living conditions, and so farmers have to heavily supplement their feed, or in the case of some ruminants, supplementing the soil itself (with cobalt) to aid in gut production of B12.

You are correct to assert that B12 deficiency leads to everything you detailed, and too that a mismanaged diet of any sort leads to deficiency in it - but wrong to assert that it is an automatic consequence of a vegan diet. You have failed to disprove that supplementation serves it's function, and your views are clearly coloured by anecdotal evidence.

 

[Egg Blues]

Another thing to note is that not even farm animals bred for eating get enough, due to their unnatural living conditions, and so farmers have to heavily supplement their feed, or in the case of some ruminants, supplementing the soil itself (with cobalt) to aid in gut production of B12.

I could take time to respond to so much more of your post, but this paragraph in particular aligns to the concept of animal husbandry for which this forum exists and needs a little clarification.

Livestock were not intended to eat as they are typically fed today in a feedlot. Because of issues with overcrowding and sanitation, as well as because of its effect on improving weight gain, antibiotics are regularly given to most livestock. Now, let's stop and think for a moment....giving the animals antibiotics when they rely on the bacteria to feed them will result in what? This may be partly why they are largely fed corn and/or other grains, which contain alpha-chain carbohydrates that are digestible without the aid of bacteria (just as we would consume) instead of the grass with its beta-chain starches that are indigestible to mammals. Cows were not designed to subsist on corn--their nature is to chew the cud of grass, feeding the bacteria in their gut, then digesting that bacteria. If the bacteria are destroyed by the antibiotics, their nutritional pathway is altered out of the course of nature, and supplements are an attempt at correcting some of the predictable problems that will come with this.

 

[Amfh]

You're not disagreeing with anything I said, only adding to it, so I'm not sure what the deal with the patronising tone is? I never went into or disputed the why, only stated what is.

 

[arizona_chicken_noob]

Yes, you are wrong.

L-Lysine and DL-Methionine are both synthetics produced to compensate (partially) for the deficiencies of a vegetable based diet. While the DL-Methionine is likely produced via a series af laboratory reactions, chances are good the L-Lysine has been produced by gene-edited yeast, or perhaps e. coli. Calcium Carbonate obviously isn't a vegetable, you got that much right.

Chickens essentially can't use phytate (plant-based) phosphorus, yet most biological processes involving calcium (like bone development, growth, maintenance) require 1 part phosphorus to two parts calcium. A vegan diet can't provide that. Neither is there a useful plant source of B12. Achieving trace mineral needs CAN be done, with the right plants, and the right soils, and a bit of luck - but more commonly is achieved with vitamin powders, most of which are produced chemically, not thru natural processes. That vitamin powder mix represents the last 20-odd ingredients on the label pictured.

Sufficient? Or should I continue???

This is a time when its likely better that you had remained silent (assuming you are familiar with the adage).

I find this unnecessarily rude, and I don't know why you think getting mouthy with someone who is just interested in science and exploring the arguments is a productive thing to do.

What a passive aggressive way to tell someone to "stfu". Not appreciated.

Back to the science -- I don't think that yeast or bacteria produced foodstuffs are guaranteed to be excluded in a "vegan" food. Sure some will avoid them, but most have no qualms. Bread and vinegar come to mind.

This is not a commentary on this one particular chicken or what its owner is doing to it. I am just trying to read the Layena label and posit that most chickens don't get fed animal products.

If we assume that yeast is not an animal product, are there other animal products on the label? Just saying "phosphorous" does not really answer this.

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

I find this unnecessarily rude, and I don't know why you think getting mouthy with someone who is just interested in science and exploring the arguments is a productive thing to do.

What a passive aggressive way to tell someone to "stfu". Not appreciated.

Back to the science -- I don't think that yeast or bacteria produced foodstuffs are guaranteed to be excluded in a "vegan" food. Sure some will avoid them, but most have no qualms. Bread and vinegar come to mind.

This is not a commentary on this one particular chicken or what its owner is doing to it. I am just trying to read the Layena label and posit that most chickens don't get fed animal products.

If we assume that yeast is not an animal product, are there other animal products on the label? Just saying "phosphorous" does not really answer this.

I would argue that while commercial laying hens might not get fed animal products, that's not really the point because those chickens are slaughtered by the time they're two years old (maybe sooner?) Their health is not a long term concern. For backyard chickens this is almost certainly not the case. Maybe we should do a poll? Most people on here are advocates for free ranging and often feed their chickens meat scraps or mealworms, etc and their chickens live considerably longer than commercial laying hens. I think that's the crux of the argument here-this bird was off for slaughter and was allegedly "rescued" to live in conditions worse than a commercial laying hen. Just because they use grain to make most dog food doesn't mean my dog prefers a bowl of rice to a steak. I appreciate the point you're trying to make

 

[igorsMistress]

I think I’d either educate or turn the folks in. That’s terrible.