Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[BelovedBirds]

When she was eating her own eggs, I don't think that would have counted as "vegan," since eggs are definitely an animal product. (Unless vegans have some exception for eating things produced by the creature itself.)

I agree with what you said, but yes, that is correct- the same way vegans are good with cows nursing their calves or humans feeding babies breastmilk, there's no issue with a chicken eating their egg.
But that isn't vegan technically, nor would the calf be vegan, nor the baby. There are exceptions like that. The whole point of being vegan is for humans not to consume animal products.

 

[OfWolvesAndHen]

When she was eating her own eggs, I don't think that would have counted as "vegan," since eggs are definitely an animal product. (Unless vegans have some exception for eating things produced by the creature itself.)

Apparently this one does, as they say it's necessary for the chicken's health.

The yellow face is because she is not laying. It is normal in any non-laying hen that has the genes for yellow skin and is getting plenty of greens in the diet. If she were to start laying eggs, there would be more blood flow to the face (turns it red), and her body would start to put the yellow pigments into her eggs (less yellow in the face, and eventually less yellow also in the vent, legs, and beak.) A rooster never lays eggs, but a sexually mature rooster also has a red face & comb from the amount of blood flow to those areas.

This was while she was still laying.

Truthfully I'm not entirely sure of her breed. Even if I talked to her owner enough to know, I'm sure they probably don't know either. But I'm comparing her body type to that of a layer

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Methionine is an amino acid that is in high proportions in grains, but in insufficient quantities in legumes. If the chicken gets grains, methionine should be no issue. While grains are not "vegetables" per se (depending on one's definitions, but, biologically speaking grains are fruits, not vegetables), they certainly can be part of a "vegetarian" or even "vegan" (plant-based) diet. Lysine is in high quantities in Lamb's quarters, a common backyard and garden green leafy "weed." Lysine is also high in quinoa, a grain-like seed, as well as in all legumes, including alfalfa, beans, peas, etc. Lysine is in low quantities in grains, which is why people typically consider a grain plus a legume to provide a "complete protein" (having ample quantities of both of these limiting amino acids). So neither of these amino acids must be sourced from animals.

Close, but functionally wrong. Yes, I understand protein complimentation, which you explained adequately. Here's the bit you missed. Methionine appears in high proportion relative to other amino acids as a percentage of total protein in grains. The very vast majority of grains have very low protein, and as result, the contribution of amino acids by those grains to a chicken's needs are insufficient. The addition of synthetic methione sources (or an animal-based source like fish meal, porcine blood meal, etc) is critical to composing a nutritionally complete diet for a chicken. SO critical in fact that dl-Methionine can be added to feed without affecting its "organic" labelling.

Most reputable sources, and study after study, place the methionine needs of an adult laying hen at at least 0.3% (of a 100g/day diet). Hatchlings of all breeds and broiler chickens need much more to support their growth rates, rates up to about twice that.

100g of white corn contain just .197g. of Methionine. The same for 100g of yellow corn. Changing sources (USDA doesn't have a listing for dried whole soft or hard wheat),

Feedipedia.org averaged soft wheat as 87% dry matter. Of that dry matter, 12.6% was crude protein. Of that crude protein, 1.6% was Methionine. 100g * .87 * .126 * .016 = .175g of Methionine. Durum (hard) wheat is better. 100g * .879 * .165 * .018 = .261g of Methionine in a 100g serving. Quinoa? 0.18g. etc.

Lentils actualy contains MORE Methionine than a similar weight of corn or soft wheat (.021), even though methionine as a percent of total protein is lower, because it contains significantly more protein overall. and if that's not a big enough difference to make the point, here's 100g of chickpeas, 0.27g.

I could repeat for other ingredients, but I hope you begin to see my point. ALL of these ingredients provide insufficient levels of Methionine on their own. No combination of them will raise the methionine levels in the ration to the 0.3g minimum daily target - the only way it can occur is if you increase the size of the ration - which brings problems of its own, since most studies suggest chickens eat until their energy needs are met (roughly) not necessarily meeting desired levels of individual dietary components.

When we humans practice protein complimentation, we adjust ratios - red beans and rice isn't 50g (dry) rice plus 50g (dry) beans in equal proportion, and we can increase total mass consumed, altering our diets elswhere thru the day, to meet our targets. A complete chicken ration is not mixed in such fashion.

A bit of unasked for advice, Egg Blues. You are relatively new to BYC and have made several pronouncements on how to feed birds, including a homemade feed recommendation. We do check sources around here, do the math, test assertions. In short, we check one another, because we are interested in how best to see to the needs of our birds. The reliability of your opinions on this subject (in my opinion) is not high.

 

[OfWolvesAndHen]

What's the big deal? It's just a chicken whose destiny is to be killed by a human. Call it a temporary reprieve.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this take. At all. It's still a living thing capable of suffering. Even if our birds are being raised for slaughter, they deserve a happy and comfortable life in the meantime.

Now instead of a quick slaughter, this bird is being deprived of her most basic needs under the guise of "rescue" and looks to be slowly wasting to death. And instead of providing a meal for someone, her death will be in vain.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

they were just sharing their thoughts... No need to be rude....?

They were making a pronouncement of fact. About which, they were more than a little mistaken. Rather than respond, "nuh-uh" and compete for opinion based on feels, I offered facts to demonstrate that they were, more than a little, mistaken on the subject - and the rest of their opinion should be accordingly discounted if one values the health of the bird more than feelings.

Some people don't. I don't care either way. The facts are what they are, feelings don't make a chicken's diet superior anymore than they will protect you from the effects of gravity.

 

[Egg Blues]

I agree with what you said, but yes, that is correct- the same way vegans are good with cows nursing their calves or humans feeding babies breastmilk, there's no issue with a chicken eating their egg.
But that isn't vegan technically, nor would the calf be vegan, nor the baby. There are exceptions like that. The whole point of being vegan is for humans not to consume animal products.

The chicken eating her own egg would be like a human drinking her own milk. Just the facts. How much added nutrition would one get from this "recycling"? A B12 deficient source cannot hope to provide itself B12 anymore than a man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. Vegan or not, it certainly is not a valid source of nutrition to consume one's own product.

 

[Chicken Heel]

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks. She's now 2 years old and poor girl doesn't look healthy at all. She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs. She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation. She is fed 3 small cat bowls of mixed greens per day, and when she was still laying that would also include one boiled egg with shell.

Her feathers are dull and scrappy, she's bony and underweight, still has down feathers on her tail, has an almost yellow pallored face, and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying. Citing "speciesism", the owner will not see a vet.

The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens, but I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed. She lives indoors so she gets no forage. Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)? Are vegan diets sustainable for chickens? And if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

Just when I think I have heard it all, I read this... my chickens love to be fed meat products, especially the left over carcasses from Thankgiving turkeys. And just last week, you should have seen them go after some thick sliced bologna.

 

[Battlepants]

Unfortunately, I believe many of you are right; I don't think there's any way to change this person's mind. Any trustworthy care guide or expert advice lobbed their way is, once again, dismissed as "speciesism". They themselves also hail themselves as a "chicken care expert" yet spread fountains of misinformation, including that hens are supposed to eat their own eggs, because the calcium in the shell comes straight from their bones.

One telling sign of a true expert, in my eyes, is someone who is able to able to take criticism and facts counter to their beliefs and use them to grow their own knowledge.

And someone who genuinely found a breakthrough will be able to stand that breakthrough up and have it endure criticism and counter claims.

Perhaps challenge this individual to post their methods here. If they are truly doing the right thing, they have nothing to fear and maybe WE need to learn from them. And if they are a true expert, the only risk is that they learn how to better treat this hen.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I dont ds

They were making a pronouncement of fact. About which, they were more than a little mistaken. Rather than respond, "nuh-uh" and compete for opinion based on feels, I offered facts to demonstrate that they were, more than a little, mistaken on the subject - and the rest of their opinion should be accordingly discounted if one values the health of the bird more than feelings.

Some people don't. I don't care either way. The facts are what they are, feelings don't make a chicken's diet superior anymore than they will protect you from the effects of gravity.

I agree with you, it just sounded a little harsh

 

[BelovedBirds]

The chicken eating her own egg would be like a human drinking her own milk. Just the facts. How much added nutrition would one get from this "recycling"? A B12 deficient source cannot hope to provide itself B12 anymore than a man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. Vegan or not, it certainly is not a valid source of nutrition to consume one's own product.

It puts some of the nutrients back into the body, no doubt, but isn't complete in itself, both examples are full of nutrients. All I said was simply that it is fine for them to eat their own eggs- I also said they need a complete diet.