Vegan diet for chickens - is it unhealthy?

[BelovedBirds]

Lives indoors with no other birds and is confined to a dog cage at night, not to mention being malnourished and then shot up with hormones because of the complications of said malnourishment... they look at their poor sick bird and tell themselves, and others, that they're supposed to be that way.

That poor bird. What is the point of being vegan when youre neglecting an animal so terribly.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Wow, I didn't expect so much feedback! I'm very glad others share my concerns -- I know this topic can generate some controversy.

Unfortunately, I believe many of you are right; I don't think there's any way to change this person's mind. Any trustworthy care guide or expert advice lobbed their way is, once again, dismissed as "speciesism". They themselves also hail themselves as a "chicken care expert" yet spread fountains of misinformation, including that hens are supposed to eat their own eggs, because the calcium in the shell comes straight from their bones.

At night, the bird is kept in a small dog cage. The owner does not have any other chickens. Even if this one is too far gone, I'm still worried because this person and their friends do other "rescue" work, and what's worse they are planning on operating a chicken sanctuary. Whatever that means.

feeding their eggs back is fine, but not providing proper feed is not fine, her diet is extremely unhealthy

 

[BelovedBirds]

Yes, you are wrong.

L-Lysine and DL-Methionine are both synthetics produced to compensate (partially) for the deficiencies of a vegetable based diet. While the DL-Methionine is likely produced via a series af laboratory reactions, chances are good the L-Lysine has been produced by gene-edited yeast, or perhaps e. coli. Calcium Carbonate obviously isn't a vegetable, you got that much right.

Chickens essentially can't use phytate (plant-based) phosphorus, yet most biological processes involving calcium (like bone development, growth, maintenance) require 1 part phosphorus to two parts calcium. A vegan diet can't provide that. Neither is there a useful plant source of B12. Achieving trace mineral needs CAN be done, with the right plants, and the right soils, and a bit of luck - but more commonly is achieved with vitamin powders, most of which are produced chemically, not thru natural processes. That vitamin powder mix represents the last 20-odd ingredients on the label pictured.

Sufficient? Or should I continue???

This is a time when its likely better that you had remained silent (assuming you are familiar with the adage).

they were just sharing their thoughts... No need to be rude....?

 

[Egg Blues]

L-Lysine and DL-Methionine are both synthetics produced to compensate (partially) for the deficiencies of a vegetable based diet. While the DL-Methionine is likely produced via a series af laboratory reactions, chances are good the L-Lysine has been produced by gene-edited yeast, or perhaps e. coli. Calcium Carbonate obviously isn't a vegetable, you got that much right.

Methionine is an amino acid that is in high proportions in grains, but in insufficient quantities in legumes. If the chicken gets grains, methionine should be no issue. While grains are not "vegetables" per se (depending on one's definitions, but, biologically speaking grains are fruits, not vegetables), they certainly can be part of a "vegetarian" or even "vegan" (plant-based) diet. Lysine is in high quantities in Lamb's quarters, a common backyard and garden green leafy "weed." Lysine is also high in quinoa, a grain-like seed, as well as in all legumes, including alfalfa, beans, peas, etc. Lysine is in low quantities in grains, which is why people typically consider a grain plus a legume to provide a "complete protein" (having ample quantities of both of these limiting amino acids). So neither of these amino acids must be sourced from animals.

At night, the bird is kept in a small dog cage. The owner does not have any other chickens. Even if this one is too far gone, I'm still worried because this person and their friends do other "rescue" work, and what's worse they are planning on operating a chicken sanctuary. Whatever that means.

The hen's owner reveals a degree of imbalance in judgment that can nearly be predictive of certain things, e.g. how long he/she has been vegan (I might estimate at least 7 years). The greatest tragedy in this situation is not that of the hen--it is that the owner is becoming brain-damaged as a result of his/her vegan diet and consequent deficiency of vitamin B12. The longer one has been vegan, the more fanatical his or her views become. It will be nearly impossible, at this stage of the mental impairment, to persuade this individual otherwise. Vegans become irrational in certain things, most particularly in their veganism. It is often the case that prolonged vegans will consider themselves superior to others, and their own judgment more to be trusted than that of non-vegans. (Don't ask me how I know so much on this topic, but I will just say I am one who was vegan for less than a year before learning how unhealthful it was, and that I have had many close acquaintances who have followed the vegan dietary, some at the cost of their lives.)

The NIH informs us that when vegans consume large quantities of greens, their folic acid intake is in sufficiently high quantities to mask the initial symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency. By the time they become aware of their plight, permanent brain damage may have occurred. This is no laughing matter. Without the masking effect, early symptoms of B12 deficiency usually include numbness/tingling in hands or feet, loss of short-term memory, loss of taste or smell, tiredness or exhaustion (lack of energy) for seemingly no good reason, e.g. even when one is exercising regularly and getting adequate sleep, and later symptoms (no masking for these) can progress to problems with hearing, sight, partial paralysis/difficulty walking, and finally death.

There's little hope of persuading a long-term vegan of the benefits of a different diet (and/or the harms of veganism). Vegans become entrenched in their views.

The average life expectancy of a vegan, according to a 1999 Meta-Analysis study of tens of thousands of people on five major diets (meat-eating, occasional meat-eating, pescatarian, lacto-ovo vegetarian, vegan) found that the vegans had the same mortality as did the regular meat-eaters. So while they think they are better off than the meat-eaters, they actually are not. Vegans, perhaps because they lack B12, tend to succumb far more quickly to cancer than do others. While they have much, much less chance of diabetes, colon cancer, and certain other ailments, the cancers that they do get take them down quickly; e.g. brain cancer, like a classmate of mine who died in his 30's having been vegan for at least 10 years. I have witnessed children of vegan parents who had kwashiorkor's disease. In North America. With plenty of food to eat. Again, veganism and its deleterious effects on many people is no laughing matter. There are a few, a small minority of people, who can thrive on a vegan diet. Most are not so fortunate.

If you ARE on a vegan diet, you need to know that cyanocobalamin, the most common form of B12 in supplements and as a food additive, is virtually useless. Studies have shown that 98% of this exits the body within 24 hours, whether it was taken orally or via injection (the kidneys take it out). If you are a vegan, you need to know about methylcobalamin--it is more expensive and less commonly available, but well worth it. Vegans should also be aware that nutritional/food yeast does not naturally contain B12, and it will only have it if the producer added it (probably as cyanocobalamin). There is no purely vegan source of vitamin B12--this vitamin comes only from animal products.

 

[raingarden]

What's the big deal? It's just a chicken whose destiny is to be killed by a human. Call it a temporary reprieve.

 

[NatJ]

Someone I know has a "rescue" cornish/leghorn cross that they stole off a slaughter truck at 6 weeks.

If that chicken was on a slaughter truck at 6 weeks, she probably was a Cornish Cross, but there is no Leghorn in those commercial meat birds (USA version, likely in other countries but I'm not positive about them.)

Or if she was a Leghorn-cross, she would be a layer-type chicken, and she should have seemed bony and skinny at all times, never big and plump like a broiler.

She is fed exclusively greens and (previously) her own eggs.

When she was eating her own eggs, I don't think that would have counted as "vegan," since eggs are definitely an animal product. (Unless vegans have some exception for eating things produced by the creature itself.)

she... has an almost yellow pallored face... her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying.

The yellow face is because she is not laying. It is normal in any non-laying hen that has the genes for yellow skin and is getting plenty of greens in the diet. If she were to start laying eggs, there would be more blood flow to the face (turns it red), and her body would start to put the yellow pigments into her eggs (less yellow in the face, and eventually less yellow also in the vent, legs, and beak.) A rooster never lays eggs, but a sexually mature rooster also has a red face & comb from the amount of blood flow to those areas.

As you describe the hen, she certainly does have problems-- but her "almost yellow" face is not one of them.

she's bony and underweight

Are you familiar with Leghorn-type laying hens? Is the hen bony compared to them?
Because a normal, healthy Leghorn will SEEM bony and underweight compared to a Cornish Cross meat chicken or even a dual-purpose chicken. I'm still not clear whether she's supposed to be a meaty round chicken, or a slender egg layer chicken.

I'm not saying you are wrong about her being too skinny, just checking what you are comparing her with. The typical shape of a broiler chicken is not healthy either.

She is fed exclusively greens... She recieves no commercial feed or supplementation....
Her feathers are dull and scrappy... still has down feathers on her tail...and did not lay her first egg until nearly 2 years old. She would take up to ten hours to lay and would act extremely painful and agitated during the process, before her owner gave hormone implants to stop laying....The owner insists that fully vegan diets are healthiest for chickens

I agree that all of these points are concerning.

I largely suspect this bird's poor health and failure to thrive is due to how she's being fed...Is it possible her poor health is just because of poor genetics (she was a broiler heading to slaughter, after all)?

If fed the "right" diet (for good growth), most broilers will die within a few months, because they get too big for their legs and for some of their organs to work right. As you describe her problems, she is in the opposite condition. Even though the diet they are providing is not the best for a chicken in general, it probably HAS helped this one live longer than she would have on most other typical diets for chickens. I do think it could be improved in ways that would let her get the other nutrients she needs without getting more total food than she should have. (This paragraph is assuming she is a broiler-type chicken. If she is really a layer-type chicken, ignore it.)

if not, how can I convince them otherwise?

Unfortunately, you probably can't

 

[LizGio]

Unfortunately, and it's something they want to continue doing, on a larger scale even.

When that happens, check out local law/ordinances, report them, have an inspector come out.

 

[LizGio]

What's the big deal? It's just a chicken whose destiny is to be killed by a human. Call it a temporary reprieve.

Slaughter would be more humane

 

[BelovedBirds]

Methionine is an amino acid that is in high proportions in grains, but in insufficient quantities in legumes. If the chicken gets grains, methionine should be no issue. While grains are not "vegetables" per se (depending on one's definitions, but, biologically speaking grains are fruits, not vegetables), they certainly can be part of a "vegetarian" or even "vegan" (plant-based) diet. Lysine is in high quantities in Lamb's quarters, a common backyard and garden green leafy "weed." Lysine is also high in quinoa, a grain-like seed, as well as in all legumes, including alfalfa, beans, peas, etc. Lysine is in low quantities in grains, which is why people typically consider a grain plus a legume to provide a "complete protein" (having ample quantities of both of these limiting amino acids). So neither of these amino acids must be sourced from animals.

The hen's owner reveals a degree of imbalance in judgment that can nearly be predictive of certain things, e.g. how long he/she has been vegan (I might estimate at least 7 years). The greatest tragedy in this situation is not that of the hen--it is that the owner is becoming brain-damaged as a result of his/her vegan diet and consequent deficiency of vitamin B12. The longer one has been vegan, the more fanatical his or her views become. It will be nearly impossible, at this stage of the mental impairment, to persuade this individual otherwise. Vegans become irrational in certain things, most particularly in their veganism.

This is incredibly offensive. I had a lot of health issues before I went vegan and since going vegan, with help and advice from my GP, it has gotten considerably better.
Most people, at least where I live, are not healthy. The meat they consume is processed and served in a way where the nutrients are gone. They dont live on their diet to thrive in health, they eat the food they've always eaten and they do it because they enjoy it.

The human body struggles to digest many animal based foods because they arent natural. Don't put all your criticism on vegan diets. There are countless supplements and natural, plant based products which boost health AND include B12 and other nutrients.

Instead of putting this conversation into abusing vegan diets, why don't we stick to the topic? The neglected hen?
Plenty of vegans have no idea how to care for animals. Choosing not to eat animal products for love of the animal does not equal knowing about animals or their care. You don't need brain damage to be an idiot, trust me, they exist on BOTH sides.

 

[BelovedBirds]

What's the big deal? It's just a chicken whose destiny is to be killed by a human. Call it a temporary reprieve.

I'm very glad they saved the chicken, but there was no point in doing so if she lives a miserable unhealthy life- its not saving them if it's neglect.