Washingtonians Come Together! Washington Peeps

[CarolynF]

Quote:
Hi Matt...
Yes, your experience, by definition is anecdotal ("non-scientific observations or studies"). Your population is too small, there are too many variables, and there's no control group. The results alone aren't enough without the steps in between. I'm sure your high school science and math teachers taught you that. I remember all too well the phrase.... "Show Your Work!" Just writing down the final number wasn't acceptable. Exactly like you just said... being advised at the feed store or the breeder isn't enough. (wink wink) You didn't mention how you determined that DE has no effect on shells? Vitamins D & K, and magnesium are not calcium, but with it our bones become stronger by helping us better use the calcium we take in. Not that long ago doctors would have called that information BS. DE has a pretty big number of additional elements, perhaps that's the key to it's results.

I appreciate your experience, but in this particular case I think a controlled research project, published by and presented to the scientific community probably trumps anecdotal experience and speculation.

On the other hand, instead of feeding DE for extra calcium, maybe I should just feed them lots of spinach every day since we know it's an excellent source of calcium. Between my and my neighbor's garden this year, I have a ton of it and more is already planted for fall and winter harvest, too. Love that stuff.


Edited 8/20 to add....
I posted the SPINACH comment as a tongue-in-cheek poke at Matt. And since neither he nor anyone else commented on it, I want to make sure no one took me seriously. DO NOT feed large amounts of Spinach to chickens. Like rhubarb leaves, it contains high amounts of oxalic acid which binds iron and calcium. Some report that it leaches calcium from their bones.

Here is a quote regarding oxalates in rhubarb, taken from a document on plant poisoning of livestock from University of Vermont Extension:
"Some oxalates are insoluble and cause local irritation but the oxalates in rhubarb (and other
species, such as sorrel or dock, Rumex) are soluble, and cause systemic problems, especially
in the kidneys, or they can affect the electrolytes in the body, such as the balance of calcium
and magnesium. Poisoning can be acute, when large amounts of oxalates are consumed
quickly, or may be chronic, where smaller amounts are eaten over a longer period of time.
Low blood levels of calcium and kidney failure are commonly reported findings in soluble
oxalate toxicity. Affected animals will appear depressed, and may stagger and tremble and be
weak. Often, they will drink and urinate more as kidney function declines. Diarrhea may be
noted, and affected animals may die if the electrolyte balance is extremely deranged or if the
kidneys fail."

 

[Duck Drover]

Glad she's actually going to give you *your* hen finally, but please don't forget to quarantine her! 30ft for 30days, different shoes, the whole thing. Esp. considering how not honest this person seems to be! Don't risk your flock for a 'frizzle friend'! Will let everyone know what the test/necropsy reveal as soon as I know. Have another chicken starting the sniffles this morning - AGH!

I did not quarantine the hen and rooster from the trio when I brought them home. They were already seperate from the rest of her birds and I wanted the rooster to get to work. I did trust that the birds were healthy so they went straight into the coop. I have not separated any birds when I brought them home because they all seemed healthy. I should probably stick to hatching eggs from now on so I don't have to worry about being sold diseased birds. I sold a Black Copper Marans pullet (she looks more pullet than cockerel and I agreed to buy her back if she is a he by mistake) that I had pulled out of the duck water (it was not deep so the pullet was standing in the water when I pulled her out) and saved from drowning. She was sneezing a bit but I figured she got some water in her and would be fine once she sneezed it out. Now the pullet is still sneezing a week later and she has lost her appetite, according to the woman who bought her. She said there is no discharge but that she has a rooster that is sneezing with a discharge and wondered if she could give them both the same antibiotic. If the chicken is sick I am going to refund the $10 I got for her but I am worried that the duck water may have made her sick and I am not sure what would be the best treatment. Is there any way the duck water would have made her sick by aspirating it? If she did get sick from the duck water, could it be contageous? I hope I am not responsible for two sick chickens but if I am I want to make it right by compensating the woman who bought the pullet from me.

 

[Tailfeathers]

By the way BYC people... this is just one example of how controversial the topic is, and why. Reputable research is very hard to find. There is a lot of information that sounds scientific, but is in fact written by people that are really just trying to convince people to buy their products. When you dig deeper, most claims cannot be substantiated by actual controlled, scientifically and statistically accurate research. In general, we each have to sift through the information and take from it what we believe seems to work in our own situations.

There is nothing abrasive or rude about what Matt wrote. It was simple, pointed, and straight-forward. NOTHING wrong with that. This PC stuff has to stop. It's gotten to the point where nobody can say anything without somebody running to a Mod and complaining. Then the person gets banned for "excessive arguing" or "fight". See Rule #6. How about people grow the heck up and maybe repeat the mantra, "Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me!" I mean C'mon! Enough is enough. ALL you are doing is running off the people with the most experience! AND I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE MODS HERE! I'M SAYING PEOPLE GROW UP!

Matt, how long you been breeding birds? Carolyn, how about you? Inquiring minds would like to know so as to weight the comments against experience.

Btw BYC people... this IS just one example of how controversial the topic is and why. No matter how much evidence is put out there, there is always gonna be somebody that sites a lack of this or that study or not enough research here or there. Here's all the proof I need. I have given DE to my chickens, cats, and dog. Within a day I saw them pass worms. Coincidence? You can believe that if you want to. I'm using DE. I have dusted my birds with DE for mites. The next day there were far, far fewer. Coincidence? You can believe that if you want to. I'm using DE? I've read the posts on here and FB from some who say DE is Snake Oil and doesn't work for worms and/or mites/lice. Baloney! Do them saying that make the topic controversial? I guess that depends on your definition but just because there is always somebody that wants to question an issue to ad nauseam doesn't mean that one side doesn't have merit!!

Does DE make the shells harder. I seriously doubt it and for the reasons that Matt has eluded to. In what I've read about the formation of an egg there is nothing to support that. Moreover, I've not seen anything that says the DE is digested and goes into the blood stream.

 

[Fred's Hens]

OK, this was is re-opened following staff review.

Perhaps it is best to just move along now. Thanks.

 

[Vickis Girls]

Hi guys,
I have a question. I have 3 hatchery birds which were vaccinated for Mareks. I just hatched 4 eggs and these little guys are in the brooder. I did not intend to vaccinate them, but am now wondering if the vaccinated ones can be carriers of Mareks. If you've already addressed this subject, forgive me for not reading back far enough.

 

[AletaG]

yay! The thread is back! For those who were following:
1. don't have to cull all my chickens per State vet and Seattle chicken specialist vet.
2. Will have to wait 3-6 mos for infection to completely run it's course through the population, then, because they will always have antibodies in the blood, will have to spring for nasopharyngyl swab PCR testing to show they are clear.
3. They advised getting any new chickens now, as MG is very prevalent in wild populations, and is NOT generally fatal on its own (esp if ckns older, all my problems have been in young ones) and once it's done, it's done. That way can clear everyone at the same time.
4. Any new chickens will be tested on arrival for MG/MS/PT/Newcastle/AI (skip AI/PT if NPIP sourced)
The investment will be minimal compared to the heck I went thru over the last week or so figuring out what to do/who to talk to.

Will be adjusting/upgrading my biosecurity. Still limited by what my kids understand, and the lot size, but we do what we can.

Useful information!
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/avian.aspx Dr. Rocio Crespo is awesome, and they do return calls and answer questions *at length*
http://www.bellevuecrossroadsvet.com/ Dr. Bruce Singbeil best 75$ consultation ever. Over an hour on the phone answering questions.

When I've recovered from the whole thing, will probably start a new thread with copies of the tests / emails and summaries of the phone conversations...

LOVE my Wa peeps!

 

[LittleLaneFarm]

Just wanted to show off the Hamburgs, they are now over a month old and then a pic of my little mixed breed babies born around the same time

 

[CarolynF]

Hi guys,
I have a question. I have 3 hatchery birds which were vaccinated for Mareks. I just hatched 4 eggs and these little guys are in the brooder. I did not intend to vaccinate them, but am now wondering if the vaccinated ones can be carriers of Mareks. If you've already addressed this subject, forgive me for not reading back far enough.

Hi there and welcome!

You're from Central Washington.... anywhere near Ephrata? I used to live there.
Questions are always welcome, so never hesitate.

You're right that vaccinated birds can still carry. As with other topics you're going to get advice from both camps. And the arguments are strong for both sides. If you go back just a few days you'll find a few posts dealing with exactly those thoughts.

I think you're going to have to sift through it on your own and decide for yourself. It sort of boils down to how you deal with risk and possible loss. If you want to develop a hardy flock that survive via natural selection where only the strongest, most resistant birds survive, then you won't vaccinate. On the other hand, if you have young children that won't deal well with the death of their special little feathered friends, vaccination may be the route to take. And of course this is just a simplified version, so listen to what others have to offer, weigh the pros and cons, and decide for yourself.

 

[CarolynF]

yay! The thread is back! For those who were following:
1. don't have to cull all my chickens per State vet and Seattle chicken specialist vet.
2. Will have to wait 3-6 mos for infection to completely run it's course through the population, then, because they will always have antibodies in the blood, will have to spring for nasopharyngyl swab PCR testing to show they are clear.
3. They advised getting any new chickens now, as MG is very prevalent in wild populations, and is NOT generally fatal on its own (esp if ckns older, all my problems have been in young ones) and once it's done, it's done. That way can clear everyone at the same time.
4. Any new chickens will be tested on arrival for MG/MS/PT/Newcastle/AI (skip AI/PT if NPIP sourced)
The investment will be minimal compared to the heck I went thru over the last week or so figuring out what to do/who to talk to.

Will be adjusting/upgrading my biosecurity. Still limited by what my kids understand, and the lot size, but we do what we can.

Useful information!
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/avian.aspx Dr. Rocio Crespo is awesome, and they do return calls and answer questions *at length*
http://www.bellevuecrossroadsvet.com/ Dr. Bruce Singbeil best 75$ consultation ever. Over an hour on the phone answering questions.

When I've recovered from the whole thing, will probably start a new thread with copies of the tests / emails and summaries of the phone conversations...

LOVE my Wa peeps!

Aleta.... thank you for sharing all of that! Great information!

 

[chickiemomy]

yay! The thread is back! For those who were following:
1. don't have to cull all my chickens per State vet and Seattle chicken specialist vet.
2. Will have to wait 3-6 mos for infection to completely run it's course through the population, then, because they will always have antibodies in the blood, will have to spring for nasopharyngyl swab PCR testing to show they are clear.
3. They advised getting any new chickens now, as MG is very prevalent in wild populations, and is NOT generally fatal on its own (esp if ckns older, all my problems have been in young ones) and once it's done, it's done. That way can clear everyone at the same time.
4. Any new chickens will be tested on arrival for MG/MS/PT/Newcastle/AI (skip AI/PT if NPIP sourced)
The investment will be minimal compared to the heck I went thru over the last week or so figuring out what to do/who to talk to.

Will be adjusting/upgrading my biosecurity. Still limited by what my kids understand, and the lot size, but we do what we can.

Useful information!
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/avian.aspx Dr. Rocio Crespo is awesome, and they do return calls and answer questions *at length*
http://www.bellevuecrossroadsvet.com/ Dr. Bruce Singbeil best 75$ consultation ever. Over an hour on the phone answering questions.

When I've recovered from the whole thing, will probably start a new thread with copies of the tests / emails and summaries of the phone conversations...

LOVE my Wa peeps!

I second your applause for Dr. Crespo! - she gave a talk/seminar at the Mother Earth News fair in June & I learned a TON! And she really loves chickens, you can tell. It's great to have her as a resource here.

Good to have the vet recommendation also!

Thanks for the update -- another lesson in isolating new stock?

One comment I took away from Dr Crespo's talk was along this topic - your chickens may appear healthy (ok be healthy) in your own environment, while the new chickens may appear, or be healthy in their existing environment. But each separate environment has its own set of microorganisms. Bringing new chickens onto your soil introduces their microorganisms into your flock, perhaps to its detrement. I think of it as similar to the drinking water issues humans occasionally have when vacationing - those individuals who live there have no problems with native water, but you do until your body adjusts.

I know some do not isolate new chickens, & I understand that & if that works for them great. But personally, if I have a small flock of treasured (however one defines that personally) chickens, I would want to follow some guidelines for isolating new stock to reduce the chance of spreading illness, and potentially devastating loses.

I've seen chickens at shows - albeit in the 'for sale' section, that exhibited mild signs of respiratory disease. That chicken may be shedding germs that could be picked up by a chicken in close contact. You would not necessarily know the chicken you bought had been in a cage next to it, exposed & not yet ill, bringing those germs to your flock. This observation, along with the on site advice from one of the very knowledgeable & well-regarded folks on here (who confirmed my observation of possible illness & provided suggestions on quarantining new stock) has made me a bit of a germophobe when it comes to this. Buyer beware.

I also want hardy chickens that thrive & don't need to be coddled, but I don't need to expose them to, say fowl pox, to prove they are tough enough to survive it. You know?