Water belly

[Feather Locklear]

What is the protein percentage of your feed? Too much protein over a long period can cause water belly (also known as Ascites).

Between 17 - 18%. Fed feather fixer 20% while they molted

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I have things to do around the hobby farm at lunch in advance of the next cold snap, so it will be this evening before I comment at length. Ascites is NOT associated with "high protein" feed in rearing chickens, except incidentally in that it happens to be most associated with male, high growth, broilers - who are incidentally fed high protein feeds.

It **IS* associated with thin air (that is, more prevalent at high elevation), early exposure (first weeks) to sudden/extreme cold, and is more prevalent in birds w/ heavy bodies and high growth rates (i.e., the "Frankenchicken", everyone's favorite supermarket bird, the Cornish X). Feed restriction or reducing energy content of the feed is just as effective, if not more effective, than protein reduction in controlling ascites in that hybrid/breed. Its not the CP, its the bird getting too big, too fast for its heart and lungs to support. Face facts, the Frankenchicken has not been bred for long healthy lives - drawing inference from them as applicable to chickens generally should be done w/ caution.

Extremely high CPs are associated with - and studied - for their role in other maladies. Mid 20s CP aren't extremely high, though they are generally wasteful. It is extremely unlikely that the feed used by OP has anything to do with development of water belly in their birds, given ages and breeds. Even less likely that it has anything to do w/ CP. So much less that I would dismiss the possibility as worthy of further consideration.

That said, there are no formal studies on chicken feeding and ascites as related to high CP diets. It has no commercial value, and as such is unlikely to receive study funding. CP is expensive, much research is done to reduce CP content / optimize AA profile. There ARE, however, a number of studies I've previously linked related to high CP and increased incidence of urate formation, gout, renal issues, and the like - primarily using the chicken as a human analog. I don't recall any of them mentioning increased rates of ascites in the test flocks.

Off the top of my head.

 

[Feather Locklear]

@Feather Locklear

I have an older bantam hen who developed ascites, I believe, from a drastic temperature change that she couldn’t handle last winter. Being my first encounter with this condition, I did a ton of research before I began treatment. The way I treated her was based on my research and also my personal determination as to dosage, etc, for such a small bird.

I separated her and began treating with a 1/2 teaspoon of vitamin c powder mixed with a cup of her low-protein crumbles, a few drops each of organic oil of oregano and organic milk thistle oil to a gallon of water. I made this available 24/7 for the 4 months of treatment. I also made plain water available to her. I did 2 drains, 4 weeks apart. This is a single chicken, so it was easy for me to closely monitor her liquid and food intake.

She’s still with me today (a year later) and thriving. No further signs of ascites. I’m not telling you that I have the cure, but using a combination of the above mentioned very likely helped to save my little hen.

There’s a lot of information out there explaining the benefits of oregano, milk thistle, and vitamin c. Do a lot of research and determine whether anything I’ve suggested (and the suggestions of others) may help your flock. Also, search the articles here on BYC. You’ll find lots of valuable information. I wish you well. Keep us updated.

Thank you for that valuable advice. I really appreciate it

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and to the extent we give a [care] about anecdote, all of my birds are raised on 24% CP with a good AA profile (high Met, Lys) for the first 8-12 weeks of life. They remain on 20% CP for the rest of their lives.

I have never experienced water belly in one of my birds.

I'm also at less than 200' elevation. and see sub freezing temps lass than 3 weeks (total) in any given calender year, with perhaps 1-2 days each year which are persistently sub 32* for a 24 hour period.

my adult birds also free range 24/7, so excess dietary energy is controlled, partially, by both increased activity and feed management on my part.

which is anecdote, not data.

 

[Feather Locklear]

I have things to do around the hobby farm at lunch in advance of the next cold snap, so it will be this evening before I comment at length. Ascites is NOT associated with "high protein" feed in rearing chickens, except incidentally in that it happens to be most associated with male, high growth, broilers - who are incidentally fed high protein feeds.

It **IS* associated with thin air (that is, more prevalent at high elevation), early exposure (first weeks) to sudden/extreme cold, and is more prevalent in birds w/ heavy bodies and high growth rates (i.e., the "Frankenchicken", everyone's favorite supermarket bird, the Cornish X). Feed restriction or reducing energy content of the feed is just as effective, if not more effective, than protein reduction in controlling ascites in that hybrid/breed. Its not the CP, its the bird getting too big, too fast for its heart and lungs to support. Face facts, the Frankenchicken has not been bred for long healthy lives - drawing inference from them as applicable to chickens generally should be done w/ caution.

Extremely high CPs are associated with - and studied - for their role in other maladies. Mid 20s CP aren't extremely high, though they are generally wasteful. It is extremely unlikely that the feed used by OP has anything to do with development of water belly in their birds, given ages and breeds. Even less likely that it has anything to do w/ CP. So much less that I would dismiss the possibility as worthy of further consideration.

That said, there are no formal studies on chicken feeding and ascites as related to high CP diets. It has no commercial value, and as such is unlikely to receive study funding. CP is expensive, much research is done to reduce CP content / optimize AA profile. There ARE, however, a number of studies I've previously linked related to high CP and increased incidence of urate formation, gout, renal issues, and the like - primarily using the chicken as a human analog. I don't recall any of them mentioning increased rates of ascites in the test flocks.

Off the top of my head.

Hello and thank you. Just want to fully understand the acronyms in your reply. By "CP" do you mean crude protein? And "OP" - operator? And what is the acronym "AA" ? Thank you!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Hello and thank you. Just want to fully understand the acronyms in your reply. By "CP" do you mean crude protein? And "OP" - operator? And what is the acronym "AA" ? Thank you!

CP = Crude Protein
AA = Amino Acid {getting the AA profile right is, in my view, far more important than the raw CP number, for reasons I've explained elsewhere}

OP = Original Poster { the person whose comment started the thread}

 

[MysteryChicken]

Mostly Kalmback crumble, pellets and Henhouse Reserve. Some crushed corn and sunflower seeds as snacks.

How often do you give the snacks? They could be effected by Fatty Liver Disease.

 

[Feather Locklear]

How often do you give the snacks? They could be effected by Fatty Liver Disease.

About four times per week. And the hens with the water belly are very thin. Their breast bones are very pronounced.

 

[Feather Locklear]

and to the extent we give a [care] about anecdote, all of my birds are raised on 24% CP with a good AA profile (high Met, Lys) for the first 8-12 weeks of life. They remain on 20% CP for the rest of their lives.

I have never experienced water belly in one of my birds.

I'm also at less than 200' elevation. and see sub freezing temps lass than 3 weeks (total) in any given calender year, with perhaps 1-2 days each year which are persistently sub 32* for a 24 hour period.

my adult birds also free range 24/7, so excess dietary energy is controlled, partially, by both increased activity and feed management on my part.

which is anecdote, not data.

My hens are free rangers too

 

[MysteryChicken]

About four times per week. And the hens with the water belly are very thin. Their breast bones are very pronounced.

Yeah, way too often with the treats. I give treats once every other week to prevent overly fat birds, & avoid fatty liver.

Thinning is probably due to them not eating due to the pressure within their abdomen, or they all have a form of reproductive cancer. But I think over feeding treats maybe the root cause though.