Mine are also, but not currently due to a certain dog mostly.
Water belly
- Thread starter Feather Locklear
- Start date
You’re welcome! I hope anything I did with my girl can be helpful for your flock. Please keep me updated.
So elevation and cold temperatures cause water belly?
I have a small breed in cold temps at 1400ft. I had no issues until I upped there feed from 20% to 22% for a period of 8 months. Since I have lowered the feed to 20% I am not seeing new cases. Now I keep 18% and 20% in stock at the same time.
I have a small breed in cold temps at 1400ft. I had no issues until I upped there feed from 20% to 22% for a period of 8 months. Since I have lowered the feed to 20% I am not seeing new cases. Now I keep 18% and 20% in stock at the same time.
No, go read my post again. Or wait till I get off work when I can spend the time I couldn't this AM. It will go better for you if you figure it out on your own.
I thought this was a site to learn from each other and share information.
You come off like you have knowledge in this area but when I ask for more information you tell me to go figure it out for myself?
strange
Actually, I told you to reread what I wrote. You reached the wrong conclusions on first pass, then repeated a logical error.
Correlation is Not Causation.
Neither elevation nor sudden/extreme cold temps (particularly when very young) CAUSE water belly (ascites). Both are, however, aggravating factors that promotes a condition generally believed to result primarily from excess blood pressure in the lungs (pulmonary hypertension), right ventricle failure or certain respiratory infections. Cold because it increases metabolic needs (thus increasing oxygen demand), and higher elevation due to reduced oxygen density per unit volume.
In the case of cold-related temp stress of the very young, its also believed to adversely affect development during that key period, making the bird more prone to ascites later in life, when their oxygen needs are greater.
Similarly, rapid growth creates the potential for both relatively large oxygen needs relative to heart and lung capacities (think about a chicken's lings and their relation tot he rest of the body - they are smashed up against that bone structure, very limited in their ability to expand/contract), while rapid growth itself is often associated w/ relatively weak connective tissues, with external observations of twisted joints (primarily knees, or the development of "angel wing"), less obvious in abnormal toe structures and weak hip joints. Less obvious still is internal weakness in the organ tissues.
Breed/genetics also plays a factor. "Broiler" types, particularly the Cx, have relatively small lungs relative to body size as compared w/ "layer"-type breeds. Fast growth birds have greater metabolic needs (and often, sub-par connective tissue development) compared to slower growing birds, even of similar (eventual) body mass. Key minerals have a role to play - particularly those impacting the Sodium channel and Phos-related processes.
Ultimately, however, Ascites is trapped fluid in the abdominal cavity, regardless of cause (which can also result from aspergillus damage to the lungs, or bacterial respiratory infection). Its a syndrome, the characterization of an end result, whose causes are complex and often inter-related.
Nor is anecdote to be confused w/ data, whether yours or mine. Both of us, anecdotally, have fed above 20%CP feeds (me, longer than you), yet only one of us have reported any Ascites. The differences in our anecdotes are that you are both higher elevation and generally colder (sometimes much) than my flock. Both are risk factors for more frequent presentations due to higher stress on your birds. But your rate of claimed incidence is well, well above the rates reasonably anticipated based on the literature, and further, are in close temporal proximity. That suggests another cause as likely, possibly infection. Yes, the feed might be the vector, but not because of high CP, more likely as a source of the undesired infecting agent. Or it could be something transiently present in your environment. Hard for anyone to say with any confidence _ I'm merely playing odds.
But if you would like some light reading. I suggest these:
Ascites in Poultry
PME of Ascites in Poultry
Sodium & Ascites
Low Phos & Right Ventricular failure (common pathway to ascites)
Ascites in Poultry (review, 2013)
Ascites in Broilers (Discusses heat/cold, genetics, elevation, brief mention of diet)
Diet and Ascites
which should help you find yet more articles. Basically, you are looking for things by Wideman, Julian, Camacho-Fernandez, Ruiz-Lopez and a handful of others. Almost nothing is recent. Some will need the use of Goggle translate.
Correlation is Not Causation.
Neither elevation nor sudden/extreme cold temps (particularly when very young) CAUSE water belly (ascites). Both are, however, aggravating factors that promotes a condition generally believed to result primarily from excess blood pressure in the lungs (pulmonary hypertension), right ventricle failure or certain respiratory infections. Cold because it increases metabolic needs (thus increasing oxygen demand), and higher elevation due to reduced oxygen density per unit volume.
In the case of cold-related temp stress of the very young, its also believed to adversely affect development during that key period, making the bird more prone to ascites later in life, when their oxygen needs are greater.
Similarly, rapid growth creates the potential for both relatively large oxygen needs relative to heart and lung capacities (think about a chicken's lings and their relation tot he rest of the body - they are smashed up against that bone structure, very limited in their ability to expand/contract), while rapid growth itself is often associated w/ relatively weak connective tissues, with external observations of twisted joints (primarily knees, or the development of "angel wing"), less obvious in abnormal toe structures and weak hip joints. Less obvious still is internal weakness in the organ tissues.
Breed/genetics also plays a factor. "Broiler" types, particularly the Cx, have relatively small lungs relative to body size as compared w/ "layer"-type breeds. Fast growth birds have greater metabolic needs (and often, sub-par connective tissue development) compared to slower growing birds, even of similar (eventual) body mass. Key minerals have a role to play - particularly those impacting the Sodium channel and Phos-related processes.
Ultimately, however, Ascites is trapped fluid in the abdominal cavity, regardless of cause (which can also result from aspergillus damage to the lungs, or bacterial respiratory infection). Its a syndrome, the characterization of an end result, whose causes are complex and often inter-related.
Nor is anecdote to be confused w/ data, whether yours or mine. Both of us, anecdotally, have fed above 20%CP feeds (me, longer than you), yet only one of us have reported any Ascites. The differences in our anecdotes are that you are both higher elevation and generally colder (sometimes much) than my flock. Both are risk factors for more frequent presentations due to higher stress on your birds. But your rate of claimed incidence is well, well above the rates reasonably anticipated based on the literature, and further, are in close temporal proximity. That suggests another cause as likely, possibly infection. Yes, the feed might be the vector, but not because of high CP, more likely as a source of the undesired infecting agent. Or it could be something transiently present in your environment. Hard for anyone to say with any confidence _ I'm merely playing odds.
But if you would like some light reading. I suggest these:
Ascites in Poultry
PME of Ascites in Poultry
Sodium & Ascites
Low Phos & Right Ventricular failure (common pathway to ascites)
Ascites in Poultry (review, 2013)
Ascites in Broilers (Discusses heat/cold, genetics, elevation, brief mention of diet)
Diet and Ascites
which should help you find yet more articles. Basically, you are looking for things by Wideman, Julian, Camacho-Fernandez, Ruiz-Lopez and a handful of others. Almost nothing is recent. Some will need the use of Goggle translate.
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