water storage

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I know about concentration of stuff in their *tissues*, in fact I have published research on lichens (I was a professional biologist before becoming a mommy and chickenkeeper) -- my question is about your specific statement that the spores of mosses and lichens (or their leachate) will dangerously contaminate roof water.

Which I still can't find any reference to through google, although I've only spent a half hour or so and there certainly may be something out there I haven't found. Can you show me specific sources documenting that?

Also, wouldn't you BE keeping the roof clean of moss and lichen ANYhow?

This is why local farmers try scrupulously to keep trees away from roofs and to expose shingles to sunshine.

Hmmm, well, the usual reason for trying to keep moss and lichen from growing on roofs is because it rapidly ruins shingles and causes your roof to leak and then rot.

Of even greater note is the possibility of contaminating your flock with wild bird droppings.

Yes, obviously biosecurity is an issue with roof water (was that not mentioned on this particular thread? maybe not) but it is usually more of an issue with keeping the stored water in the cistern from growing up illness-causing levels of salmonella or other things like that, that can exist in feces and then multiply in stored water. While *in principle* some other avian diseases could be spread by roof water, I have not been able to find much evidence of that having been documented as actually occurring, probably in large part because hardly anyone has such strict biosecurity as to prevent their flock from exposure to the very same wild bird droppings by other means, e.g. in an unroofed or large-mesh-on-top run. So I dunno how big a thing that is for most people's situation, w/r/t roof water.

Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of people in the developed world (by which I mean, excluding those who have no choice in the matter) using roof runoff for drinking and livestock and gardening, and have been for quite a long time, and in fact it is pretty common in some parts of the world. This is NOT some wingnut untested idea. I don't see why a person shouldn't do it, as long as they respect its strong *and weak* points.

JMHO,

Pat​

 

[LynneP]

It's like anything else, pat, worth considering. I choose not to do it, plus there is no need because of our line from the well. But it's simply another variable in the steep learning curve regarding animal care.

 

[patandchickens]

Honestly, Lynn, I really *am* interested in knowing if there is documentation on this leachate thing... is there? I am not saying this as an "I bet there isn't" rhetorical gambit, I am genuinely trying to find out about something that I haven't heard of before and would like to read more about if it is in fact a Real Thing.

Pat

 

[Hillsvale]

Hi Pat and Linda.... a mamouth amount of interesting information there however for the poor un-scientific accountant that I am, you lost me!! here's my thoughts

Since the coop is new the roof tiles will be shiny and new, we have no overhang on trees or branches so the shade moss etc should be kept at bay, should it shart to fester there is nothing like little scrub to remove that right. I intend on building my own gutters out of PVC pipe and limiting the amount of open "trough" which should minimize contamination that was. To someone elses point, the birds will be sipping out of puddles etc so perhaps it would be OK to collect from the roof.

As for freezing, if the coop is (OK OK will be) sheathed in OBS, covered with tar paper and that covered but what we call shims which is the piece the mills saw off a log to square it up for 2x4, 2x6 etc materials. The interior will be insulated with pink, vapour barriered and covered with OSB then painted. The floor is insulated with the blown in stuff (just not blown in). The windows are vinyl double sliders, quite large to allow lots of sun in.. especially in the winter and an insulated steel door. I would think that it would have to be darn cold in that coop for a 25 or so gallon container to freeze and burst and the overflow could always go from the top of the tank and run to the floor within the coop and be pushed out the side at floor level.. right around the litter on the floor made up of either sawdust or wood shavings. My only thought on freezing would be the line which runs from the jug to the auto waterer... because its so think that it could potentially freeze unless protected, my thoughts haven't gone that far with the exception of an overkill of insulatin (the pipe kind) or putting all these pipes within an insuated "cupboard"

Obviously I am a newbie and I could be way off base but its worth a try.... and Linda, yup before the time my mind explosed with thoughtsof creating I will come around for a visit since your a pro.

Cheers all.

 

[LynneP]

It's absolutely worth a try, and you have the background now to give you a heads-up if you notice anything awry. Check out the rain barrels at various locations, apparently you can acquire one that is quite inexpensive in this season, and the fittings are brass so should withstand harsh conditions. The manufacturers sometimes advice to drain and put away for winter, but there may be some that can be kept, especially in an insulated building. The flat-back ones and the corner-fitting ones range about 40 gallons and have overflow. I like the idea of the catch pan for emergencies too. Oh and if you use Typar instead of tar paper (unless you already have the tar paper) it goes up fast and is so effective in baffling wind and water.


pat- when I consulted Dr. Mass and completed the research on his work and that of others the consensus was that both the platen, symbiotic layers and spores concentrated the heavy metals equally. In the east we have a high concentration of lichens and mosses and it is believed they thrive due to acidic conditions and because they can absorb toxins, much as they did in the early days of earth's development. We're lucky to have them, otherwise the toxins would remain in the air and surface waters- the trick is not to consciously run water for humans or animals over the organisms. In this province, we have older barn roofs that have been leached by runoff, largely acid rain and therefor we have zinc around those buildings. We have lakes with a pH of only 4. The mosses and lichens occasionally blow off trees, especially the common Usnea (old man's beard) and if found in a trough or barrel for drinking must be discarded or the water discarded if it has been there a time. Of course most primary research is in the journals but I'll continue searching the net too and I'll post you with specific info should I find it.

 

[suburbanhomesteader]

I don't know anything about lichen symbiosis or concentrating, but I do know a lot about rainwater harvesting and solar living, including solar greenhouses.

At the south side of every greenhouse I've ever made, I have put dark water storage tanks. They absorb heat during sunny days, and give it back at night. They are AMAZING in their ability to moderate temperatures inside a greenhouse. I would very much imagine it could be the same for chicken coops. In Indiana, I used (and still use, here in Texas) ROUND Rubbermaid 45 gallon grey BRUTE trash cans
http://www.officedepot.com/a/produc...-EC81-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA

and also ROUND Rubbermaid dark green http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(oiiwtiebndgcwvelc5gs01va)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=73208 trash cans.

Both seem to be flexible enough to prevent bursting when it freezes. In Indiana, I had a Brute sitting outside that appeared to be frozen solid, although we'd had high temps around 15-20 for more than a week. (It sat it in the sun for more than 4 years and was still going strong when I left, so it wasn't overly phased by Indiana UV. FYI, I also use the rectangular Rubbermaid dark green trash cans for tidy-looking covered storage. They've been sitting in the Texas sun for 4 years and don't look worse for the wear).

That same winter, were also having sunny days, and the water in the trash cans in the greenhouse never fell below 40 degrees.

If you think the rainwater is safe to drink, I say "go for it".

I'm currently investigating Sweeter Heaters, and he told me about a woman who is using her heater for a watering station:

(Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the thermometer next to this gorgeous dog, whose water doesn't freeze because of this heater)
http://sweeterheater.com/page4.asp

OK, that's my two cents! Even though it's from WAY south of you, and on another thread I've already acknowledged I shouldn't be talking about chickens and cold weather, I hope it helps.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Last try -- I *know* they bioconcentrate heavy metals, that is not the question.

My question is, what evidence is there that roof runoff has an elevated concentration of heavy metals etc from leaching 'em out of lichens/mosses on the roof.

In this province, we have older barn roofs that have been leached by runoff, largely acid rain and therefor we have zinc around those buildings.

The zinc is from galvanized roofing and from flashing, it is not from lichens or mosses. This is precisely why people are discouraged from using roof water from galvanized roofs in acid-rain areas, or from older lead-flashed roofs anywhere.

Thanks for continuing to look, and if you do find any useful citations I really do look forward to seeing them b/c I *am* interested in the subject.

Thanks,

Pat​

 

[Hillsvale]

thanks for the feed back thus far.... we are outside today finishing the exterior sheathing and how to put on the rest of the tar paper today and hopefully the windows (Linda I had the tar paper!)

It is surrently -5 degrees celcius (about 20 degrees Fahrenheit), not calculating the wind chill which is significant today!! brrr when I opened our attached garage which is obviously insulated (but the heater is disconnected) I found a milk crate with the tools I have been running back and forth with, in there rigth at the door was a small bottle of water completely liquid.. I was a bit surprised there wasn't a bit of ice. Anyway this brings me back to my thoughts that the coop should be reasonable especially with the windows heat wise (though I may have to find a way to cool things in the summer. I think I will get a wireless thermostat of some other contraption to monitor the temperature inside the coop for this winter so I can judge what will occur next.

Linda... I'm still gong to have you for a visit....

this place is a fountain of information!

 

[Hillsvale]

so update to the last post... we got all the sheathing on and most tar paper.... on window complete and one frame (I stored the slider upside down so it frose in the window out position).. but the time this was completed my fingers and toes were numb. When I came in I chedcked the temperature again and yes the temp had dropped to minus 10 celcius... check the windchill.... -18 celcius, dear god its like purgatory out there!!

and just mid-December. Boys and girls I think we are in for a cold one!!

So in the morning I will check and see if the bottle of water is frozen in the attached insulated garage but there is no way any chickens would be pecking about in their pen here today!

I will definately chart the outside temp, wind chill and interior coop once insulated etc. I really want to avoid using heat for many reasons.

 

[LynneP]

We were by your place a few minutes ago, racing home to give the birds evening treats before the light was too low. You've made huge progress. The chill factor here was -17C most of the day down to -8C with nicer weather predicted for the next 3-4 days thank goodness. The wind was brutal, but like you said, when you're out of it, it's not bad at all. Sheathing and insulation are so satisfying in a coop, I know you will be very pleased with your work. Did you notice Bob's hog were in the back of their sheds, and the pinto ponies up the road at the back of the loafing shed? Everybody was hunkering.

Oh, Home Hardware has a sale on weather stations, 2 models, ranging from $16-18, they use AA batteries, one is good to 300' the other to 219', I think. I'm getting one next week.