Weakness & Starvation from Internal Fungus and Mites

Oh the salts- salts aren't used to curb diarrhea - they actually create it. It's used as a flush in **extreme** cases to flush absolutely everything out of the bird's system. (In other animals, and humans, it's an emetic - causes vomiting for the same reason - to expel everything from the digestive tract). The way that it acts against diarrheal illnesses it that it will flush bad bacteria out of the system, mycotoxins, mold spores from corn use, etc. Unfortunately epsom salts flush so strongly that you then must use electrolytes to replace what was all pushed out, and of course good bacteria. Essentially you're wiping the slate clean - whatever gets their first (and remember often there were a lot of bad bacteria there) takes over, like a settler. So that's why it's very very important to get the good live colonizing bacteria there, and something for them to 'eat' (fiber). That's why I like molasses flushes better to recommend as they still flush, but less strenuously and (if given with a cleansing food like applesauce or pureed apples) they still do a fabulous job.

On the molds, remember it doesn't need to be wet/warm for mildew problems. Corn feeds are notorious for alfatoxin problems - corn mold. The heat and the latent moisture in the grains will cause it, even if there's not a lot of humidity. The issue could occur where the feed was manufactured, the feed dried, but the spores still being present there.

Moxidectin is interesting. It's supposed to be a better wormer - has always been pushed as such, but in horses (well smaller horses) there were a few deaths and always some talk in the industry about 'why'. And I'm not sure about how far we can push the pyrantels, praziquantels, etc. But I think that using it at the same dosage rate is the safety bit. I've seen some articles, a few articles on experimental and effective doses of tapeworms meds, but haven't really been able to break that down into the products we have available (and apparently we have a lot more than I thought, having recently been doing some research).

One thing to note - apparently Valbazen has some tapeworm effectiveness. Anytime I say "tapeworm effectiveness", I cringe a bit knowing that I say that with a big ol' grain of sale. Nothing is really effective against tapeworms. If you read the veterinary texts for tape treatments in poultry, they all say "there is no treatment". (Thankfully, they also tend to say that in most cases they're also not a huge problem, though it's notable that a large worm can completely obstruct a chicken - and since we're not psychic.....). The only real way of trying to prevent them is by preventing intermediate hosts (flies, beetles, earthworms, etc) and that's not easy. I think more realistically, just avoid puposefully feeding intermediate hosts. And then if there is a problem, repeat worming until there's not much evidence of the problem.

Unlike other worms, tapes have a stunningly effective survival rate as segments (the individual reproductive 'factories' if you wll that are dropped). Each rice-grain like piece can withstand drying and temperatures that usual ova from other parasites cannot. So we treat the internal worm, but it drops segments, each segment is a little tapeworm factory, it survives drying, gets picked up (because it looks like rice) and the tapeworms live on.

That being said, it's still worthy to try to keep knocking them back. MSUCares (Mississippi State U) says fenbendazole, used regularly, can be effective. Valbazen (albendazole) is related, and I've read recent studies where Oxybendazole is effective (and apparently is being sold as a livestock tape wormer). So it's worth a shot, and really all we have.

As for wormers, I look at the effective time that they have on parasites - and extrapolate as if they're effective, that means the med is still in the system. Usually it's 14 days - with 'azoles (most of them, unless stated otherwise) it will be. However again we're looking at egg products usually, not meat. Meat, because of resistance, I'd do 14 days. Eggs - how much really goes into the egg? I'm usually more concerned that the parasites might be in the eggs, rather than the medicine.

As for the comb, and the pictures, the pictures to me remind me of the external manifestations of yeast or fungal infections. Since you don't have a lot of humidity. Of course, think about where the white bits are - they're in the convolutions of the comb - that's where oils, cells, whatnot build up and will make that waxy fungus looking bits in the crevices. The scabs, I'd watch and see if it's indeed fungus, or a possible late pox. Of course, build up immunity - and I think the little increase in food type (protein, etc) is a good idea. I'm glad she's eating well though.
 
I couldn't believe it--My chickens had Northern fowl mites!
My head rooster, Lace (as in boot lace), who I'd hardly been looking at lately, was huddled on the floor last night, and was visibly swarmed with them. I'd only been knowledgeable about chicken mites previously, and these mites had been far less noticeable.
I've been feeling horrible about it.
I gave Lace a warm bath & drowned the mites all off, and then held him by a heater and fed him Poly-Visol & baby parrot food. But he was already too weak and died quietly.
Lace has always gotten way more parasites than the other birds in the coop--another way he's been a protector for them, actually--bless him. So you could REALLY see the mites on him, but not on the others.
Sonoran Silkie--It seems mites can indeed cause comb build-up. In addition to Sunny's white on his comb, all the remaining chickens now have black scabbiness on their combs.
I've bathed one other chicken so far and DOUSED the others & their perch and nests with Sevin Dust (I hope excessive Sevin Dust isn't harmful to chickens?). I will be doing additional treatments, too.
I think my two hens that died earlier may indeed have been dealing with a fungal condition, in addition to mites and heat. Threehorses--Your comments prompted me to remember that I'd fed my chickens some corn on the cob which had had some moldy parts I'd tried to trim off. Definitely not a good choice
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And giving antibiotics and fructose would have made a fungal problem worse.

THANK YOU, EVERYONE, for caring, helping me look through possibilities, and teaching me lots of additional health knowledge!

p.s. If anyone is interested in dewormer and some other meds, I found a good page that gives detailed info on specific action of several kinds at http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/medications/medications.html . It may be useful when choosing types.
I buy the Moxidectin/Praziquantel dewormer cheaply ($12 to treat at least 30 chickens) as horse dewormer tube--Quest Plus gel.
Threehorses--Great idea to use the "effective" time on dewormers to guess at "clearing" time for egg & meat safety!
 
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first I never heard of feeding 30 yr old wheat
did it not smell old?

as for the white spots on the combs
It must be some infectous condition

as for the green diarrhea it is a serious E.coli problem and effecting the liver
or as we used to say " going light"

GREEN DIARRHEA/ 2 VITAMINS/WET MASH PROBIOTIC
This must be some gut problem here is my suggestion for whole flock

do this
now the
natural probiotic recipe is is:
1 qt of dry feed crumbles
1-1/2 qt of milk, sweet, sour, or buttermilk or a mixture of all or some
1 cup of yoguart of non flavored yoguart ( no artificial sweetmer)
mix good

SINGLE CHICKEN
3 tbsp of dry crumbles
4 tbsp of milk
1 tbsp of yoguart
1 tbsp of apple sauce put on top of mixture for chickens taste

AFTER PUTTING vitamins in
after vit's are mixed in add the applesauce last for taste to chickens
PUT 1 TSP per chicken OF APPLE SAUCE FOR THE WET MASH PROBIOTIC

NOW THE IMPORTANT INGRIEDIENT FOR EACH CHICKEN FED
and add 1- 1000 mg of Vit E by cutting the end off the vit E capsule for each chicken fed this wet mash
also 1 Vit B complex crushed and
putting it in the wet mash
OR FOR each chicken your treating
so for each chicken use 3 tbsp of mixture and 1-1000 mg of Vit E

twice a day for one wekk
them till the manure is solid and regular colored with white tip

and feed each chicken
3 tbsp full of the wet mash probiotic and what they will clean up in 20-30 minutes
then clean wet feeders and restock dry crumbles

do this twice a day for a week
till the chickens manure is right
then quit the Vit E and Vit B complex make just the wet mash probiotic
then once a week for life


2 tbsp of apple cider vinegar per gallon of the chicken water so their gut flora wil be regulated

they should have this at least 3-5 days a week
then three days aweek after they are over coccidiosis
the vit's are neccessary to clean up the damaged gut problem
take all the electrolytes out of the water

I really do not know what to say for the white spots other than using pure Iodine on each spot
twice a day

also the wormer for horses it wasted money and time as it will not have enough wormer in that bit size to worm the chickens
using piperzine in the water would have been better

sorry but I think your too close to the situation to see what needs to be done.

the chickens could have a mold problem and as threehorses told you old wheat is the cause

try the wet mash and vit's and see what helps the chickens
email me also.
 
Brief update--
After heavily dusting the remaining 4 chickens as well as a good part of the coop with Sevin dust, I gave them all a dose of moxidectin & praziquantel.
Then yesterday I bathed the 1 roo that's left. No clear signs of mites on him.
Today I swept out the whole new coop (It has concrete lower walls & floor) sprayed with permethrin, and put in all new bedding.
I'm feeding everyone baby parrot food every other day. Sometimes mixing in yogurt or applesauce or oatmeal or lay mash. I'm putting Vi-Tal or a few drops of Poly-Visol in their water every 2 or 3 days. I hope these efforts can help meet the same nutritional needs as your from-scratch suggestions, Glenda. I'm trying to get done what I can.
The skinny hen, Wonder, is still very skinny, though her feathers are growing back in well. I am worried for her still & don't think she's out of the woods.
The other 2 hens still are very patchy in their feathering, and fairly subdued in their behavior.
The roo is starting to get feathers growing in better. I was actually able to dig the yellowish-white spots out of his comb with no bleeding. They were kind of like the contents of a blackhead zit--but broader, not oily or translucent, and only about 1/3 went below the skin surface. I assume this matches with what you'd expect for mite residue?

Is there anything other than mites & worms that could make chickens lose weight even though they eat alright?
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It doesn't look like any of them are struggling much with diarrhea.
 
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There are several things that could do it. Mites/worms I think are the worst. By the way, did you spray the wood in the coops for the mites? That's where most of the killing takes place as that's where they spend most of their time. Goat Lice Spray (10% permethrin) or livestock lice spray (another name for 10% permethrin) are great for that.

Yeast infections or small bacterial imbalances will also cause weight loss because the enzymes and bacteria needed to dissolve the otherwise undigestable portions of the cereals/plants will remain undigested in the hindgut. Protein is what I used to build up weight. I thought it would be nice to include more grains in my birds diets and they lost weight. I switched back to 95% complete feed, raised their protein up to 20%, and they're all fine and fit - wonderful not flabby weight. About once a year I test my own feeding strategies, and about once a year I find that I shouldn't have changed a thing heheh. It's good to keep checks and balances.

Stress can decrease weight. Feed brands can effect weight, particularly if droppings are large and nutrients are being wasted. And of course birds that free range and work a lot will have less weight.

Mareks and leukosis can cause thinness despite the perfect diet. But they often have other symptoms of course. It's more of a "if a bird has _______ and can't keep weight on" thing. Rather than "If a bird is thin....."

Drinking I've found also effects weight. I find that if birds are drinking more, they gain weight better. I've not really explored why that is yet. And molting is another - if the birds out the nutrients into their feathers, it's not there to build extra body muscle and condition. I'd say protein and fiber. I'd aim for at least 20% protein even if that means a 16% laying feed supplemented with meat scrap, raw milk products (since they still have the bacteria in it unlike store milk products), or of course eggs. I'd say the comb lesions sound like mites or bites, yes. The plug way you described them sound like avian pus, more like wax rather than oily or clear. And the color. Just probably good ol' immune system reacting to the small bites.

Mites will make a bird so terribly anemic, and birds will mask it. That's what I think is key. It's hard to find mites on the birds, so I'd assume they all have it, and are all broad-spectrum anemic and also require electrolytes for four days. I'd do vitamins for a week. And retreat for mites every 7 days x 2 as the eggs (which are in any wood in the coop - though I think your coops have concrete, yes) emerge and can't be killed as eggs.
 
I just saw the most recent info sent. Thank you so much, everyone who's sent suggestions so far!

Wonder is still very, very thin. I noticed her shivering in her thin little body last night & brought her in the house, where she'll be a couple days so I can observe better what she's eating, drinking & doing.

I've been feeding her baby parrot food (which has a lot of vitamins, as well as probiotic, as I understand it) every other day, as well as some dried cat food. Otherwise either 16% or 18% lay crumbles available at all times. Starting to give a little bit of greens more regularly, too. I also throw banana peels in the coop for the chickens to pick at occasionally.

The other 3 chickens are regrowing their feathers (which had gotten patchy from mites, plus some were molting) well. All but Wonder have plumped up nicely, too. Those 3 had lost some weight & were anemic before, though not really skinny like Wonder has been. Her 2 daughters, Riley & Little, that died earlier had gotten real skinny, but the rooster, Lace, who died anemic from mites was not really skinny when he died.

No visible signs of mites on the birds any more. I changed all the bedding last week and sprayed the whole coop & nests & perches with permethrin. Added diamataceous earth to the nests last night.

I'm going to reread the earlier posts tonight. I need to better understand and sort out sequencing and combining of apple cider vinegar, probiotics (yogurt, etc.), electrolytes, and vitamins.

Is there anything else specific that I should be doing to remedy her possible internal fungal problem?

Also, I'm wondering if there might be a worm problem the praziquantel & moxidectin I gave her hasn't effectively dosed. I put diamataceous earth in her food last night, but don't know if that would help. Now I'm remembering that might be hard on a potentially damaged gut. Ah, oh...

I will review things people have written tonight. Will post another update soon. Thanks so much for all of your support. I love this little girl.
 
It's definitely worth another worming with the wormers you used. Although I don't 'think that's it in all - I think it might be a combination of all sorts of things. The worms if there were some, mites definitely - I'd lean towards high protein and blood building foods to put muscle back on her instead of just weight. The formula, the catfood's protein, the laying food are all good moves for that. With a chicken like that, particularly if there were mites, I'd usually give a blood builder. Because I have horses, I've often had red-cell here. I think it's pretty funny that they make a chicken red cell. But the red cell blood boosting products are usually the same. They do contain liver products. That doesn't bother me, but it does others. It's not something I use much because it also has iron which birds need less than the other aninals for which red-cell type products are intended. To that end, I think the cat food, vitamins, and making sure she eats will work. It's possible that when she got so thin, she had some sort of damage as a result to some organ. If that happens, it's hard to get them back up - but I'm always one to try.

My thoughts on the DE are as you've stated at the last - to use on perfectly healthy birds to keep them that way; I'm always very hesitant to give to birds who might have any inflammatory process in their digestive tract.

I'm curious about her - any clinging droppings at the vent, any powdery anything back there around the vent on the skin of the vent?

Other than medicating for fungus, long term oil vitamin supplementation (carefully of course as they're more easily overdosed than oil based) such as the red-cell product twice a week, or cod liver oil twice a week (sprayed on food is the easiest way to figure out how little to use - always on the food they'll eat rapidly and first) helps if there's a fungal thing that had happened. Of course, for the yeast versions of fungus (always a concern with any bird that has a weight issue as that's indicative of a likely bacterial imbalance at least secondarily), acv use long term (a month), and probiotics twice weekly for a month help. If you find a probiotic that has both the lactobacilli and bifidobacteria, that's a real good combination against C. albicans - the yeast that goes problematic.

I also think it's a good idea to keep her a little warmer than the others so she doesn't waste her fuel keeping her body at a running temperature.
 
As a much later update, in case someone encounters similar problems and could use help:

The main causes of the problems with weight loss & weakness turned out to be:

Primarily, an INTERNAL FUNGAL CONDITION caused by eating raw corn that had some black mold on it. I'd pretty much trimmed off parts where I could see mold, but there must have also been some that wasn't very visible on other parts.
--I have posted about treating this condition at https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=358625&p=2 and would be glad to give additional info to anyone who might need it.

Secondarily, NORTHERN FOWL MITES. These are so tiny & look like tiny bugs I've seen elsewhere that I didn't notice & identify them as a chicken parasite until they were really destructive.
--Treatment I'd recommend for a bird that's been weakened:
1. Wet the top part of their head to encourage mites to leave that area. Lay your finger against the side of the bird's head beside the nostrils to prevent water from getting in their nose.
2. Submerge the bird completely up to just below its beak in warm water for 2 minutes. This drowns the vast majority of the mites. Then you can just rinse the dead mites off the bird.
3. BE SURE TO DRY THE BIRD WARMLY & WELL, to minimize stress to its weakened system. Dry it with towels in front of a warm space heater or blow dryer. When it's dry, sprinkle food-grade Diatomaceous Earth (D.E.) throughout the bird's body (including around its head) all the way down to the skin. (Note: D.E. is non-poisonous--it just causes parasites bodies to dry out & die.)
3. Sprinkle D.E. in nest areas, dustbatheing areas, & along perches.
 
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