Weezing Roo! Please Help!**UPDATE 3**PATHOLOGY REPORT

[snowhorse]

Quote:
So I have second pullet with the same leg condition, the toes don't seem to be folded under, but her leg is not working properly. Nothing is inflamed that I can find, and no visable damage.

I do not feed the flock any extra vitamins. I just picked up a new bag of feed this past weekend. I have been feeding Purina Mills

Start & Grow

SunFresh

Recipe all along. I buy it in a 50lb bag because I go through it in about 3 weeks. When I buy it, I empty it into a metal container with a lid to keep it cool, fresh, and the water and elements out.

None of them are laying yet, and they were all born Early to Late June. And the feed is crumbles. I did add some Kickin' Chicken Supplement to the feed this past week, maybe that was it? Its an Omega additive to the feed. I put in a large feeder which probably last 2 to 3 days at most, depending on if I let them free range or not.

Did the Kickin'CHicken happen before the other hen, though?

Hmmm the free ranging - anything they could be getting into out there/ Mushrooms? Compost? Mildew or decaying vegetation? Any falling fruit?

I think I'd try the E & B on this bird, too. Also definitely time to call an extension and prepare to get one necropsied to see what's going on. Three's my magic number.

No the Kickin' Chicken was not before the other hen.

I have being doing the vitamins daily. And they are not looking good.

I noticed the Appenzeller's leg is cold, almost like it has no circulation anymore, essentially dead. She still eats and gets water the best she can, but I have a feeling the best thing for her is to be culled.

The other one I noticed that was having a hard time getting around is my Porcelian D'Uccle. Both of her legs seem to be affected but still are warm to the touch. Her toes appear to be working. But it almost seems like she has minimal control of her legs and has a very difficult time getting around.

I need to look into somewhere that would do a necropsy. But I don't know where to start. Im thinking a University, Tufts I would think maybe do it.

As far as the free range. I havent seen any mushrooms. Mildew possibly, its fall here and on the damper side of things. No fruit and I don't have a compost. Are there any plants that would be deadly? My mom has some gardens around with different plants. They don't go to far, but they do go into part of her garden. They were up around the pool filter, but the pool filter is a DE filter. I'll take a closer look to see if something has spilled up there but we never opened it this year really.

The rest of my flock looks pretty healthy. The Roo that was having difficulty originally sneezes here and there, but I don't know if that's because he is a Houdan and has very wide open nostrils. My speckled Sussex appears to be back to normal as well.

Its now just the Appenzeller and the D'Uccle. And Im thinking if I find a place that does necropsy that I may see if they will take them in the state they are in and cull them there. This sucks

 

[threehorses]

I just emailed a contact from Maryland's Agricultural Extension services to ask where to start. Hopefully she'll answer back soon and we'll get some answers for you.

In the mean time, exactly which vitamins are you using, and what levels of E, A, and D do they have? Are any of the birds' bones limber or flexible at all? Their beaks? Their toenails?

I don't like the lack of circulation in the one leg. Is there any paleness or bluing of the leg color? No pimpling of the feather follicles on the leg above the scaling?

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

 

[snowhorse]

Quote:
Bones and beaks and toes seem fine. Not soft or flexible.

My Appenzeller died I belive sometime last night and I know the poor D'Uccle is next. She is not doing well at all, can not move either leg at this point.

As far as the Appenzellers leg, it was like it was in rigor before she died. Dead straight off her body and not flexible at all. Her legs were blue to begin with it so it was hard to tell if they changed color. There was no pimpling.

Im going to give a call to Tufts University today and see if they could necropsy them. No body was open over the long weekend.

Did you hear anything back from the extension services?

 

[threehorses]

I haven't heard back from the extensions, no. Jessica Renshaw 410 742-1178
ext. 307 [email protected] is the woman. Since time's of the essence, you might want to give her a call.

I'm interested to hear what you hear from Tufts. I'm so sorry about all of this.

 

[snowhorse]

Quote:
So I did some research today to find the closest cheapest place to do a necropsy. Which landed me a couple towns over which was convienent, in Littleton, MA at the Littleton Animal Hospital, they also treat all birds which is good to know if one gets sick. The necropsy was $50 and the pathology service was $120, and the euthanasia was $40, which I should have done myself but didn't have the heart.

So I took my D'Uccle and had her euthanised and necropsied as well as tissue sent out to pathology. They use a renowed avian pathologist in Seattle, WA I guess? Looking up the symptoms myself it sounded like Marek's or Newcastle, if not hopefully just a toxin and the vet agreed. She was leaning towards Marek's and has seen 3 cases this year in this area. IM REALLY hoping its not Mareks and just something they ate. She didn't recommend culling the flock if it is Marek's and just keeping a closed flock....so we will see I guess. She called me after doing the necropsy and found nothing obvious other than spots on her liver which she was curious about and sent everything else out to the pathologist and she said it would be about 1 to 2 weeks before I hear anything back, I HATE the waiting game.

Otherwise everyone else was looking fine tonight, until I noticed some blood on the original Roo that was sick, and he has lice!

I JUST CANT WIN! So with everything I bought I kept putting off the Sevin Dust which I am going to see if I can find tonight and otherwise will get tomorrow. I swear Im just not supposed to have chickens! I checked out everyone else and I found 2 other hens that have the lice as well. So I will be treating everyone and cleaning my coop. Im thinking after I treat for the lice, I'm going to thoroughly disinfect the coop with bleach. Is that a good idea?

I did not quarantine the infected birds, as I still havent disinfected my emergency coop. I figured I have to treat everyone anyways. Is there a good disinfectant to use? I use bleach for everything usually.

I have not let anyone free range since this incident.

This nitemare has to stop soon!

 

[threehorses]

There is a really good pathologist out in Seattle, if I recall from my exotic bird forums and discussions. I'm very sorry that you had to do this, but I'm really glad that you chose to do the proactive things you have. And I'm particularly glad that the clinic near you had good reasonable prices and offered the right services.

The fact that she found nothing obvious is good towards Marek's because sometimes and often enough marek's produces neoplasias and those growths and tumors are found at necropsy. From there, they go to histopathology to determine their origin and to differentiate the diagnosis between Marek's and Leukosis. So, finding nothing to differentiate is a good first step anyway.

I also do not recommend culling for marek's as then everyone would likely have to cull their flocks - it's everywhere, people just usually write it off to "unexplained sudden deaths", or weight loss, or whatever.

Now lice! That's a very good thing to find. LIce can cause birds to be so anemic that they will have signs of paralysis. I would definitely hit them hard with permethrin dust and boost everyone with vitamins for the anemia, as well as electrolytes for dehydration (which also causes some of the symptoms you've seen) from the blood taking. If you can get permethrin rather than sevin, do so - it's labeled as "poultry dust" or livestock dust, or you can dilute the 10% liquid goat lice spray or livestock lice spray. Just make sure it says "permethrin" on the label. Sevin is being taken off of animal dusting use this year for domestic pet labeling because of health concerns. Then this week sometime, or the weekend, dust the nestboxes and bedding. Repeat in 7 days and another 7 days as the nits hatch out in stages.

Disinfecting the coop's solid surfaces is a good idea. don't bother with anything that has dirt on it as bleach stops working the instant it hits a piece of dirt. For future use, depending on what this turns out to be, Virkon-S (only the one with the S) is a good disinfectant that actually disinfects many diseases and doesn't decay as soon as it touches dirt. You'd have to order it online. Many disinfectants don't actually kill a broad range of organisms (Oxine is one) and others are only really for solid clean surfaces to disinfect lingering germs (most that feedstores have). But it's certainly something to consider. I think I'd wait and see if they isolate a microbe in the histopathology and then disinfect for that if it applies.

I hate the waiting game, too, and these things take a while unfortunately. When you get the report, I'd love to see it in its complete wording if possible.

 

[snowhorse]

I picked up the Poultry & Garden Dust, which is the permethrin dust. What is the best way to administer that? And I know you said do the inside of the coop this weekend, do you suggest doing the outdoor run? We had a frost the other night and I don't know if that would kill them or not?

And repeating in 7 days...is that just for the coop or doing the whole flock again?

And Im looking into buying some more stuff tonight, like that disinfectant. Is there anything else you think I should get?

Also I have not wormed anyone yet and nobody is due to lay eggs until the end of this month and into the following month. Would now be a good time to worm them? or should I wait until things have settled down with everything I have going on?

Sorry to ask so many questions but I want to fix this!!

And threehorses are you on a horse forum? Or know of any good ones, I have a horse with osteoarthritis that I'm trying to find remedies for and would love some info like I can get on this site.

 

[snowhorse]

So here is the complete wording on the histology report (I had it faxed to me):

It was done at Northwest ZooPath in Monroe, Wa. Dr. Michael Gamer

Necropsy revealed many 1-2mm tan/red foci in the visceral surface of both lobes of the liver.

Miscroscopic: Lymphoma: A high grade lymphoid malignancy is present throughout the spleen, large nerve, liver and lung. The tumor is comprised of sheets of neoplastic round cells that have scant acsinophillic cytoplasm and vesicular nuclei with prominent nucleoli and frequent mitoses. Portions of the tumor are necrotic. Ventriculus: The koilln layer is degenerative and lined by reflux bile. Intestine: Mild proliferative changes in the mucosa associated with epithelial hyperplasia and a moderate inflitrate of mixed mononuclear and granulocytic cells in the lamina propria. Sexual and asexual stages of coccida are present within the mucosa and cells of the lamina propria, respectively. The following tissues are histologically within normal limits: kidney, pancreas, ovary, heart and proventriculus.

Diagnosis: 1. Lymphoma, multiple tissues.
2. Intestinal coccidiosis
3. Bile reflux with koilln erosions, ventriculus.

Comment: Histologic changes are consistent with a disseminated lymphoid malignancy. This is most likely Marek's disease based on the large nerve involvement (as opposed to avain leukosis). This chicken also has a relatively heavy burden of intestinal coccidia.

Please parden any typos as I had to copy it off a fax that didn't come through great.

So my vet recommended, that I put my flock back on a medicated feed and treat them for coccidiosis. Keep a closed flock no new birds as they all likely have Marek's disease.

I want to know if this treatment sound reasonable and if I do go ahead and treat everyone for coccidiosis, I have Sulmet and was going to purchase Corid. Which is better for my flock.

Also some of my flock is due to start laying next week. If I treat them and they start laying how long before I can eat the eggs. Fun....my first eggs I won't be able to eat!

How long do I keep a closed flock? forever????..... I really wanted to get some more chicks in the spring time, and want to know if this sounds reasonable. I was planning on expanding my coop to accomidate more birds.

And should I thoroughly disinfect my coop? If so what should I use? And I had the lice problem last week that I treated, I need to redust everyone this weekend.

I have to say I was discouraged about the coccidia as I have already treated for it, but she said it can be very stubborn. Fun stuff for me!! But atleast I have a definitive answer at this point.

 

[mypicklebird]

for coccidia part- if they survive the infection, they should develop immunity. It is in your soil, so they will continue to be exposed. If they are not symptomatic (diarrhea, ruffled feathers, lethargy ect) you may not have to treat. If they just got put into a new environment, they should be treated- as they likely do not have immunity yet. For the marek's disease- closed flock for the immediate time being is best. Long term- if/when you bring in new birds- bring in vaccinated chicks and raise them as separately as possible until they are old enough to have some age related immunity (4-5mo) if possible. Or bring in 5mo old vaccinated pullets. Short term- clean if you want to, but the Marek's virus is shed primarily through feather dander via inhalation, and is long lived in the environment- so it is not really possible/feasible to decontaminate an outdoor environment. Maybe an indoor confined area (brooder/incubator room ect).

 

[threehorses]

I don't know why I get notifications sometimes, and not other times. I'm so sorry I missed this.

The permethrin dust - you just have to read the active ingredient as it's marketed under a whole bunch of different names, usually referring to gardens, livestock, lice, and/or poultry. And I usually put rubber gloves on and then pour some into the glove, then smush that into the area where I need it - rather than using the shaker cans (which I found wasted a lot). Doing the outside run is a good idea - just a sprinkle, stir it in. You don't have to use tons. But mostly lice stay on the bird, and mites get in the wood in the coop. And on the 7 days, just the birds - not the coop.

And yes -now's a good time to worm them, honestly - if they're relatively strong.

On the horse forums, I'm not on a forum but I've found tons of information on TheHorse.com I think it is? PM me and I"ll dig up what I have. I know in my personal experience, I liked Hyaluronic acid products combined with the usual glucosamine/chondroitons. I found that to be more effective. For older horses, I've heard to get Ester-C boosted products, too.